Survey Results - Polls and future changes.
Added 2021-10-24 20:05:53 +0000 UTCHere's the 2nd part of the survey.
The has been a hot topic in the past months that is how polls work.
I'll be a 100% honest that I'm not super happy with it right now, and I think it can be improved. Many people pointed out that in the closing comments on the survey, that they were not happy with the polls but didn't really know what to do about it.
A few things that were brought up.
- Popular characters always winning.
- people manipulating the poll on really close results (when people had last minute changes to decide the winning character).
- Flavour of the month characters winning when there's already too much art of them being done recently.
This lines up with a few problems I've been having on my side.
The vast majority of times, the best artworks we get are the ones that I had time to plan it ahead of time. By ahead of time, I mean coming up the month with something in mind for it. Many of the drawings we get were ideas I started months earlier. So I had proper time to cook it up, make sure it's the best possible thing.
This might line up with pin-up polls when I include suggestions that I already have something in mind for them and they happen to win. It happened in cases like Azula, Samus, Triss, Atom Eve. All those images were planned before even being included in the polls.
What happen when my ideas don't win the polls?
- Option A, I include them on my own schedule some time later if possible.
- Option B, if I can't include them, they might be scrapped and we'll never get them.
So what's the problem with polls?
While most of the time, it's perfectly reasonable to come up with the image in 1 month, sometimes it just doesn't happen. The ideal situation would be for me to postpone the image until the idea is ready.
But I can't do that with images chosen by the patrons, so I have to remake it several times before actually working and the end result might be more "generic". Like the character just "there". While it will always have the same technical quality, it just won't have the same puch. That "thing" that changes the image from good to great.
And I believe most people prefer great images. This is a case of it might be the "popular choice", but it might not be the best result.
So how to fix the situation where I might have good ideas that happen to be shelved, and having to do ideas that are not so good or ready?
For you guys to have an idea, Iris and Maya have around 10 or so images planned for them already. Some might simply not work, so they will be scrapped, some might evolve into something else. But those images really work because they are only created when "they are ready".
This also happens for other images done in the past. More recently, Starfire, Catradora, Korrasammer, Ningguang, Impa, etc. All those images were planned way before actually being made.
There's also several images that I have planned but couldn't include recently for simply lack of space in the months. Lara croft, Esmeralda, Zatanna, Powergirl and Supergirl, Catwoman, Carmen Sandiego, Samira, to name a few (there were many others over the months/years).
So what do I have in mind?
- Direct the voting suggestion to the voyeur polls (currently the voyeur poll is 100% picked by me + the top choices of the current pin-up poll). The voyeur images usually involve a sex scene, which is something that hardly ever have "official versions", so there's a lot more room to mix match characters, play with fan ships, mix up, etc. So I'd use the suggestions that you guys give, to feed this poll instead.
- The pin-up poll would be the characters I already have something in mind. Using the recent example, Lara croft, Esmeralda, Zatanna, Powergirl and Supergirl, Catwoman, Carmen Sandiego, Samira could be on a poll. While I usually keep suggestions in mind for future images, they wouldn't be directly tied. For example, many people suggested Chel (El Dorado). Instead of adding her because many people want, whenever I have something in mind for her, she would be included in the polls.
- Voting for top characters instead of just one. Currently, we have 1 pin-up voted by the patrons + 2 works of my choice + 1 voyeur per month. With that change, there wouldn't be much need for 2 slots of my choice, so I could paint the top 2-3 of those characters in the next month (except on months where we have iris series or something else planned for it, like Mermay or holiday themed images).
- Better quality artwork. At the end of the day I'm not a machine. So it's a lot better for the end result that we have images when the idea is ready to be painted, instead of just painting it because "people want it now".
- Better balance between famous characters and less famous characters. I often get ideas for many characters that are not trendy of flavour of the month stuff, and the end result gets a lot of positive reaction. And more often than not, those characters wouldn't stand a chance in a regular poll. So it could be a good fix for that. Obviously, characters that are super obscure are still very unlikely to see that light of day, because let's face it, if they are obscure, there's simply not much interest on them.
So this is what I have in mind for future polls. The general idea is that instead of directly suggesting 1 pin-up per month, I'd keep those suggestions in mind, and would come up with ideas for them. And when those ideas are good enough, you guys would help me choose the "order" that they would be painted in the coming months. I think this could possibly fix a lot of the issues we are having with the current system.
Let me know what you guys think!
Comments
I dunno if it's in the realm of the possible... but if your already planned characters had a first draft that might help attracts people to the less popular characters... Obviously, this will take time, but i believe many of us will be very happy to pick something you want to do as your priority if this mean we get top quality stuff.
François Valente
2021-10-30 04:21:03 +0000 UTCSounds great for me!
Raveline
2021-10-26 16:47:08 +0000 UTCI do agree with the issue about popular characters tending to just auto-win most polls. I will say that personally I always get incredibly disappointed when I scroll down a poll and see a character I like that isn't overly popular, only to immediately see something like Morrigan Aensland, Tifa, etc. At that point I find it hard to vote because I know it doesn't matter what I click, they win regardless. But I also understand that, well, they're popular for a reason so it's gonna happen either way. I don't really know what kind of solution there would be for something like that, other than something outrageous like separating them in to two mini-polls or something; one containing the popular types, and another holding the rest of the riff-raff. Either way, I'm generally content so long as the art looks fantastic in the end, which it always has so far.
Annchovy
2021-10-26 03:30:38 +0000 UTCthank you, I appreciate the support. Truth is, it's impossible to make any type of system where everyone will be 100% happy. The best I can do is make a system that works best for "most people", and of course, works for me as well. For example, in this survey I had people asking for more content about Iris and Maya, and had people saying they are not interested on them =D
Lee
2021-10-25 15:50:41 +0000 UTCit's important to have consistency in any type of system. A lot of people won't read all the posts, so if we have a situation where polls don't happen every month, it can be super confusing for a little of people. And if I make polls where I interfere in any way people will get really mad, and let's face it, it's not the point of a poll.
Lee
2021-10-25 15:49:27 +0000 UTCyeah, unfortunately that's not available on the patreon's poll. And making polls elsewhere creates another set of issues, so this is something that there's really no workaround =(
Lee
2021-10-25 15:47:27 +0000 UTCthank you! It's combination of factors really, so hopefully the changes will adress them as well.
Lee
2021-10-25 15:45:53 +0000 UTCThanks I think it's important to be balanced. There will be popular characters on the polls to, but overall it gives more room to explore different characters more often, that would have zero chance of winning polls =D
Lee
2021-10-25 15:42:46 +0000 UTClol, as much as I love drawing some characters, I agree, variety is important =D
Lee
2021-10-25 15:41:27 +0000 UTCThank you! I'm really glad you liked them and I appreciate the support!
Lee
2021-10-25 15:40:45 +0000 UTCYeah, it was something that I've been observing in the past months, but I couldn't think of a good way to fix it. And when it was brought up by several people as well I started to piece some parts together to see what could be done to improve =)
Lee
2021-10-25 15:23:34 +0000 UTCthanks for the support =D
Lee
2021-10-25 15:21:18 +0000 UTCthank you, I'm glad you liked them =)
Lee
2021-10-25 15:21:11 +0000 UTCthank you, I appreciate the support! It's an ongoing process, so any change that happens to be necessary on the long run, there's ways to apply it.
Lee
2021-10-25 15:20:57 +0000 UTCyeah, with the proposed changes, that won't be happening. It will be easier for people to get used to once it's "working" =D
Lee
2021-10-25 15:18:39 +0000 UTCOk, so... do you have to do a poll every month? I mean, if you have a really good idea for an art of a certain character and all non-polled slots are already filled, can't you just say "No poll this month, we're doing A, B, C and D" Also you can try to "manipulate" the poll with giving us a pitch for certain pieces, give us a short description of you have in mind. Assuming people will read it before voting.
Artein
2021-10-25 10:43:36 +0000 UTCOne of the known measures to "balance" against close poll manipulations and such (at least partially) would be to hide poll results until voting period is over. Don't know whether it's possible by Patreon's web engine however.
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2021-10-25 09:57:37 +0000 UTCBefore I toss out my two cents, I just wanna say that I'm not trying to be an @sshole.. with that being said, Krys you honestly are the best artist that I've ever come across. I've been a member of Deviantart for years and there's not many that can even hold a candle to your art on that site. You're also the only artist I support on Patreon. But lately the polls for me have been really disappointing.. to be honest if it wasn't for Iris and Maya I probably would have left Patreon months ago. Iris and Maya have been the only thing I've been looking forward to lately. That's not to say that the art you have been putting out hasn't been great, because it truly has! I just haven't been interested in the winners of the polls in months. I guess as long as you keep putting out more Iris and Maya I'll stick around but yeah.. I think I have to agree that the polls ect need some changing up. Just my opinion..
Tucker Mapes
2021-10-25 08:20:11 +0000 UTCI agree.
Ivar Andreas Rossavik
2021-10-25 04:56:55 +0000 UTCI like this idea, a poll made up of options that you already have ideas for. It's possible to end up with the best of both worlds, we patrons can offer up suggestions and if you come up with an idea for them you like they will make it into the polls. Win/win.
Eddie Murphy
2021-10-25 02:19:19 +0000 UTCI think I like the changes. I didn't really see the poll as a problem, more like an expected outcome given the sheer number of people who tend to vote here. I won't, however, say I haven't been disappointed that certain characters I'd like to see being pitted up against others they have no chance of winning against because of popularity. I definitely am more interested in art you are more interested/passionate about.
Lucas Bechtol
2021-10-25 02:10:26 +0000 UTCI agree with the problem of classic characters winning too easily ,like we just recently saw in the costume contest. You shouldn't stop yourself from doing Flavor of the Month pieces though. Yes, there's a lot of them at the same time but seeing the character in each artist's style is the beauty of it.
Alex Clerm
2021-10-25 01:56:47 +0000 UTCI'm always in support of fan artists who draw less popular characters. The world needs another piece of Tifa fanart like I need another hole in my head.
Mister Enterprise
2021-10-25 01:46:47 +0000 UTCLove it! And to echo some previous comments, I think your work is always amazing, but is always going to be at its best when you’re passionate about the idea being worked on. Finally, I really just want to tell you that one of the aspects I enjoy most of your work, is each character having a unique look and feel, especially as it comes to faces, that carries over between pieces with the same character. Truly impressive!
Adam
2021-10-25 01:42:22 +0000 UTCSounds like a plan to me!
Kyle
2021-10-25 01:14:30 +0000 UTCI think you get better art when the artist is excited to do the project. If this allows you to be excited for your Monthly projects I don’t see how it’s anything but a win/win for everyone. It’s one thing to take suggestions from patrons but I imagine you want to work on a project because it’s lights a fire within you not just because a certain percentage of people want to see. Sharpen your pencil and draw for yourself as often as you can. We’ll all benefit from it in the long run. Just my two cents.
RP
2021-10-24 23:19:26 +0000 UTCWhat else is there to say but "yes".
Duck-Bot
2021-10-24 23:08:00 +0000 UTCI support these changes, to be honest many of the issues brought up have been on my mind to some degree. I love your art work regardless of the character.
RJH
2021-10-24 22:59:46 +0000 UTCI love this idea. I have only found your art recently and I have been blown away. I joined to support you so I’m all in favor of having polls with the characters you would like to draw the most! Maybe once a year you could have another comment here with your favorite character poll and you could then pick the ones you wanted for official polls.
MikeH
2021-10-24 22:58:50 +0000 UTCI don't mind the changes as I'm supporting for the long haul either way. What I will be glad to see the end of is the vote fixing, several months recently had it happen & Sypha in particular fell victim to it leading to her being runner up 3 months in a row ultimately leading to her being removed from the polls completely.
Chris
2021-10-24 22:43:29 +0000 UTCThank you! I do keep in mind the characters people suggested. While it's going to be impossible to include everything everyone suggest, there are often great suggestions from the patrons.
Lee
2021-10-24 21:52:39 +0000 UTCthank you! I think it can be a good way to reach a middle ground, while allowing me to create projects that are better planned, and still keep you guys part of the process.
Lee
2021-10-24 21:51:00 +0000 UTCThank you. I will require some fine tunning in the long road. About your concern, I wouldn't completely scrap good ideas. The idea of the poll is to direct the priorities on what to paint next, and not to remove the "losers bracket" (like it happens atm). They would simply be painted "later" (unless people are REALLY not interested on that character).
Lee
2021-10-24 21:47:31 +0000 UTCExactly. The idea is to keep them for the follow up months. The polls would be to help out on "which comes first". And with more slots in a month being decided by the poll, it gives more room to include them.
Lee
2021-10-24 21:44:42 +0000 UTCthank you, glad to hear it!
Lee
2021-10-24 21:42:42 +0000 UTCYes, those things are important to keep in mind. Which is why I mentioned the top 2-3 instead of always the top 3. Because every now and then it's important to create some images on specific months due to timing on internet trends and such (like movie launch, new season of a series, etc). But those things I can usually plan in advance, since they tend to be announced many months before.
Lee
2021-10-24 21:42:29 +0000 UTCyeah, the problem with the current system is replacing a potential great image for a popular character that might not generate a great image simply for "not being ready".
Lee
2021-10-24 21:38:24 +0000 UTCThank you. I think it could be a balanced way to give patrons a way to voice their opinion, but also create images "when they are ready". I think the end result being high quality work is the best goad for both sides.
Lee
2021-10-24 21:37:28 +0000 UTCyeah, this is not something that it's reasonable to solve. Even super famous characters will not be known to everyone. What I can do is try to make the best images, when they are ready to be shipped. So even someone who doesn't know them, can enjoy the end result.
Lee
2021-10-24 21:34:14 +0000 UTCyes, I agree. I love painting more famous characters, mind you. But I love painting them when I have something good in mind for them, and not just because they are famous. For example the recent korrasammer, Starfire, etc. Even if they were painted in the past, I think the end result were really good. But yeah, the idea is to be able to bring more characters (sure there will be famous characters in the mix), whenever I have good ideas for them.
Lee
2021-10-24 21:31:38 +0000 UTCFirst off, it's really great to see you listening to feedback and considering some changes to make this even better! Only running polls with characters when you have a piece in mind for them sounds perfect. Doing pieces for the top 2-3 results, rather than just the winner, is definitely interesting. That would have been good news for some long-time darkhorses lately (Aphrodite, Sypha, Elizabeth), and might be a good balance to listen to backers while still allowing for winners outside of the absolute most popular. However, this would also take away spaces for characters who never even made the top half a poll, but you're really passionate about. So I'm a little torn on this second change. Either way, really appreciate you doing this, and I'm hyped to see what comes next!
Highbrow
2021-10-24 21:07:20 +0000 UTCOh man it really hurt hearing about Lara, Samira, Catwoman and Powergirl for me. If I understood correctly, in future polls when a well planned out character loses, it will not be scrapped but will just come out later?
Arch
2021-10-24 20:48:53 +0000 UTCI'm enjoying the build-up to it!
Marcia Taylor
2021-10-24 20:33:31 +0000 UTCLove it, looks like a solid plan! I'm still dreaming about you drawing Asuka, Cora from Mass Effeft Andromeda or Mamako Oosuki from "Do You Love Your Mom and Her Two-Hit Multi-Target Attacks ?" the latter has some room for really good images and she is a really nice drawn character I encourage you to take a look it's fun! haha anyones, thanks for the recent changes and consideration these days, it truly proofs you are the best, at least in my books you are!
Luis Castro
2021-10-24 20:29:36 +0000 UTCI think that this sounds like a wonderful way to change the polls, and keep you happy in your work by painting more of what you want to paint and get your ideas onto the canvas, so to speak. Roughly the same amount of work with less mental toll sounds very reasonable to me! As long as you're happy, I'm happy to be honest. I've enjoyed all your work that I have seen, including characters that I'm not necessarily fond of. You make them look amazing, and I'm all about it!
Vaanzyr
2021-10-24 20:26:37 +0000 UTCSounds really good!
Petar Stoyanov
2021-10-24 20:22:48 +0000 UTCI always wondered how stifled you yourself felt if you had a good idea for a character. Or if you felt you couldn’t ever do that idea (even as one of your two picks) because they lost out on the poll. The other thing is that in someways the polls are a victim of your early fanbase. If you gained a lot of following on say WoW art then those characters will win more even if you gained other followers from other fandoms since then. At the end of the day, I like this because it lets you use your creative and artistic abilities to the fullest. Perhaps the flavor of the month might be good to consider going forward tho. Releasing a good image of a movie that just got released that month or something could help grow your following, so keeping in mind the next big thing in a month or two is important too.
kvilledrew
2021-10-24 20:20:34 +0000 UTCIt's a tangly issue for sure, and always will be I believe. I'm game for whatever changes you feel are warranted as long as they don't affect your timeline for your Iris x Maya development. I think we can all agree that we are looking forward to the Voyeur piece in that series 😆
Chris Harris
2021-10-24 20:20:19 +0000 UTCI guess the pin-up poll already being decided would help. Would help keep things mixed.
Matthew Richson
2021-10-24 20:17:19 +0000 UTCMy problem (and purely a me problem) is that there are a lot of popular characters that I don’t know.
Craig from Omaha
2021-10-24 20:16:52 +0000 UTCI think that's a really solid and balanced way to approach the idea, and most importantly it keeps you sane and enjoying what you're doing. Burnout has been super accelerated by COVID's impact on how people live, and I don't want to speak for others but I have the feeling that the last thing any of us want is to see you just lose your spark outright and continue only because it's an obligation to your paying customers (which is what a job is, I'm aware, but creative endeavors can [and should] be so much more than that). In short, do what you think you have to to keep your workflow and mindset balanced and positive. We'll all reap the rewards of that in the form of great artwork, and I'm fairly sure the vast majority of people here will still feel satisfied with their investment. Cheers!
Jazzpha
2021-10-24 20:15:47 +0000 UTCThe main problem is that people only vote for names they know. So we see Avatar, Overwatch, Marvel/DC superheroes, etc every time and obscure characters never get their due. I wish people voted for what they felt would be a good study for the artist's style, instead of the same picture of Harley Quinn we've seen so many times before because every single artist does them. I love Maya and Iris because they always feel fresh and there's a little story being told with each picture.
Marcia Taylor
2021-10-24 20:12:20 +0000 UTC