Judgment Commentary! | Onimonogatari | Episode 4 "Shinobu Time, Part 4" [Reaction + Discussion]

alright let me try and end this off with me trying to hold out an olive branch(too). depending on how hard i went i may pull back a little on the harem deconstruction bit. I just wanted to push back a little on the idea that that is be huge big core of the series which may have been the impression one might get from your initial comment. Otherwise i agree with you though, and it should be kept consistent throughout the show. Otherwise why would they have build that up when they gonna throw it away later and it becomes a normal harem. And from what I seem to understand what seem to be your 2 problems with the kiss are 1: the level of passionate and 2: the wordplay isn't in the "original". Otherwise you seem to agree that it would have been fitting. Then let's take a look at those: I can accept if you say that the direction of the kiss may give the wrong impression. I especially agree with you on the length of the buildup(turning around part). (A little) too long. The kiss itself I can understand why they wanted to do it this way. Its an emotionally charged situation, a final farewell, i think even in context of their relationship it would warrant a littler longer than what could be considered "normal" for that kind of relationship. I think it could have been a little shorter though, yea. Quick buildup, a a little shorter kiss, punchline. That would have been ideal. A quick *smooch* while I don't think would fit in (tempo and emotional weight of the situation), you know.. I can break bread with. If you think that that would have been a more acceptable way to do it, then fine. Lastly, the pun itself. I'm not proficient in Japanese. All my research on it would leave me to understand that that is wordplay that works in Japanese, and therefore would be intentional. There has do be no change in the line, because the change comes from context. As far as I know, a LOT of meaning in Japanese is context dependent. But I think I already explained why/how the context affects the meaning, and since I am not proficient in the language itself (only know from what i read/hear here and there) and you may not be either, I don't think this is gonna lead anywhere. I think that is just a straight agree to disagree since neither of us can really bring forth qualification and argument for or against it. So I think we can come together and find some level of agreement that the kiss itself could/should have been shorter to make it less "passionate" (the degree to which we may disagree, but as i said before, its fine and i can accept that). The pun; it is what it is. We just seem to disagree on it working in the "original". Nothing WE can do about that right here though. Though at least for (fitting) subs then you may agree that it'd be working for the scene, and the only problem would be the "passionate" level of the kiss, which we can kind of shake hands on. So yea just wanted to end it bridging the gap a little and I think we've (while disagreeing on some (degree of) things)come to at least some level of agreement. :)

I also don't wanna extend this discussion, so I'll just go over the points you last listed one by one: -You say harem deconstruction is not the essence of the series, but it is its foundation and premise. Of course it evolved to be much more than that, but it was the focal point from Bake until Nise and remains being it's core, as you can find in Isin's commentaries and afterwords. That's why all the girls' personalities up until Nise are basically jokes and parodies on common archetypes of the genre; -Breaking character consistency: that's my opinion and I already explained why I think so. You're more than welcome to disagree with it; -Breaks the emotional buildup: I find the direction of the kiss terrible, especially considering that for the rest of the scene it is superb. The shot when Araragi turns around and it cuts to her slowly lifting her arms to hold his face while getting closer is just too long and feels too romantic, again, just helping with the misconception of her feeling passionate love towards him. They shouldn't have added that, and kept it like it was in the novel, just a nice and quick *smooch*. similar to the ones he had with Karen and Tsukihi, and also fitting, since he see's Mayoi as an older sister. That would already have made the scene better; -Yes, Ononoki tripping also disrupts the scene, because that is its purpose. It's there to mark the end of it and is also a masterfully executed pun, where the real chuckle comedy from the scene comes from. It has small differences in the anime and in the novel, but each is great in a different way and both are awesome. The carrying also fits Ononoki's character greatly; -No narrative purpose: I didn't say the pun had no purpose, the thing with no purpose is the passionate kiss itself. The pun is fine and a character leaving with its signature catch phrase as parting words is fitting. However, the change in the pun IS only in the sub. The original material has no change whatsoever from her usual catch phrase and just offers the normal "shitsurei, kamimashita" and the normal interpretations you can get from it in japanese grammar, including it being a way of Hachikuji "praying to a god" for a long life to Araragi;

the "gay" example had nothing to do with the situation (which I tried to make clear), it was just an example of something that can be there without narrative purpose and doesn't/shouldn't need justification. maybe its just a problem of me rambling too much and giving too much focus/detail on the wrong parts, i could have just left it at "I think there can be stuff that has the right to exist even if it doesn't have a direct purpose". But we can just drop that since I don't think it leads anywhere. I think I made it a whole point that its not your opinion that's irritating, its when it tries to establish something as fact. you can think/judge it for yourself as "too far" or "not enough justification", I have no problem with that. I mean I'd disagree, but that's all. But when you say "it goes to far", then it becomes a statement of fact, turning personal judgement into "fact" which i have a problem with. And like with any other publicly broadcasted opinion, it has the right to be critiqued. "too far" is not your whole argument, sure, but that's what i took issue with in that segment. The inconsistent with the themes of the show i have addressed as well though, arguing that at least from my perspective it very well fits into the show, and giving reasons as to why. It's not just for a pun, even though that IS one of Nisoisins big trademarks, but it very well fits in as well. I'm not gonna repeat all of those, you are free to disagree with those points i brought up (which I don't think you have addressed at all, and just reduced it to "its for a pun"). Basically your arguments (and correct me if I'm wrong/misrepresenting them) and how I address them ultra short from without further explanation, they can be found in the other posts: - harem deconstruction: Yes, but it's not the "essence" of monogatari. Also love/kissing doesn't necessarily break that. - breaks consistency: I think its perfectly reasonable from Hachikuji's perspective to do it (try and lighten up the mood by making the pun). wordplay and puns are consistently throughout the show as well. - breaks emotional buildup: only if you perceive it as such. trying to lighten the mood in such a gloomy situation is perfectly reasonable and part of the "emotional rollercoaster" of that situation. similarly ononoki carrying hachikuji would fall under that same umbrella of disrupting it. not sure how you think about that, you haven't mentioned it at least. - no narrative purpose: it does change the situation from being flat sad to one in which you are half crying with a slight chuckle/smile on your face. Its a farewell. Someone passing on to the afterlife. I believe we have seen in many movies someone "dying" cracking a joke in an attempt to cheer the remaining people up a little. Hell, when I'm dying/"disappearing" and am surrounded by loving ones i'd try to give them a smile. Just because you are parting with someone doesn't mean that it has to be plain sad/depressing. That's what it tries to do. Not just "lool funny joke xD". It uses tools like recontextualization that it has used before to make it have an impact, more meaningful. I'm not proficient in Japanese and I am not sure what you mean with "the original", but from my understanding it is NOT something present in the sub, it IS a wordplay in Japanese. Like i said before, "kamimashita" literally translated meaning [someone] bit [something] (kamu), polite form (-masu), past tense (-ta), getting the meaning from context, making it wordplay in Japanese "as well". And I hard disagree with the "it could have been delivered in a different moment". It would have made no sense to make that same joke in a different situation. Why would she randomly start making a joke by kissing him? At least in context of the farewell it's her parting gift (funnily the OST name is hanamuke, aka "parting gift"), but before there would have been nor reason to do it, aside from "hey remember the running gag, here is another version". The kiss would have been truly out of nowhere. At the end of the day you can think what you want, but I just disagree with your judgement then. Which is fine. You can disagree with mine. I just think just as you can voice your opinion I have to right to voice mine as well. I don't see this going anywhere though and I think we are past the point of productive though. I don't think anyone of us is going to change our mind over this, so we gotta end on a agree to disagree like before. So unless you gonna reply with something I FEEL THE NEED to reply to (or just a minor comment on) I think this is gonna be it for this one. If you reply I'm gonna <3 it though so you know I've read and acknowledged it :) To end it on a positive note though, the kiss "controversy" aside we can agree on it being a beautiful but sad finale for this arc, and with your 3 pet peeve scenes out of the way we are in for an amazing rest of the ride :)

You keep saying my opinion is irritating to you and that my "argument" was simply that "it goes to far" (which is not the case, as I already said WHY it feels inconsistent to me with the themes of the show) while trying to justify Araragi kissing a kid for no real narrative reason other than a pun in the middle of an emotional scene and saying it isn't weird at all. And once again, I have no problem whatsoever with innuendos, but I've got problems with how they are presented. I don't care if Araragi kisses Hachikuji, I care that it was in the middle of a farewell and it felt to me like it broke the rithym and emotional build up the whole episode was constructing upon. The pun does offer a funny closing to their recurring gag (even though that's just present in the sub and not in the original), but it could have been delivered in a different moment, maybe in a lighthearted conversation during their way in the mountains before encountering Gaen, having a cute banter similar to when she bit his finger in a cute way back in Nise, leaving the final goodbye free to be just pure heartache. The line may be good, but I don't like how it was delivered. Also, I have no clue how you got to the "gay" exemple and how it even relates to this discussion.

then I just misinterpreted the "the least of the 3". though I think you possibly could have phrased it better (but not gonna argue about that). The "sexual nature" stuff is just inferred based on the most "obvious" commonality. It wasn't meant as a definitive "that's what you are". Inferences can be and are flawed. It's an inference after all. (especially since a lot of public perception seems to be sex/nudity or especially fanservice = bad. i mean fanservice nowadays is by the absolute majority exclusively used as derogatory term) I do think though, based on what you've written that you do have a problem with stuff being sexual in nature, if it doesn't have a narrative purpose. I think there can be stuff that has the right to exist even if it doesn't have a direct purpose. For example if a character is gay (not to say that it is connected to "sexual stuff", just as a disconnected example). "why is this character gay, for what purpose" feels kind of weird for example. does there have to be a justification? though going through all of that for other stuff (like "fanservice") is a lot of work, i'm just trying to give an alternative way to look at "purpose". Though I find it a little.. weird then that you'd say "is enough to justify the weirdness", already presuming that it IS weird and needs justification. With context, understanding (and proper translation) it doesn't have to be "weird". "it could always have been toned down and have the same effect" i find kind of weird though. Like i said on its own its basically a non argument. why ought it be toned down? if you answer that, then that is your argument, and toning it down is your prescription. And in your case that'd be that you say that in a different way it could arguably keep better consistency. I think for the hachikuji kiss I've said enough reasons as to why i believe that it fits and is consistent. (love and kiss doesn't have to be romantic, it makes sense why she'd wanna lighten up the mood, the running gag fits well etc.) For the toothbrush scene, i think the line of where is too much and where is fine is fairly arbitrary and very subjective. i can put arguments on why it is within the "fine" category (like it displaying how weirdly erotic the situation has become, even though it shouldn't be, that's why it is so intense etc. etc.). but in the end it comes down to the judgment of "does it keep better consistency?". which i don't believe to be entirely subjective (although whether or not it convinces you is subjective, especially in cases that aren't super clear and one-sided). (also i just find it super funny on a meta level that there is half an episode of toothbrushing.. just the "weirdness" of it, though that has nothing to do with all of this) Also not sure where to include this, but throughout the show at several points monogatari makes use of a technique where they once do/say one thing, then recontextualize the context and repeat the same thing, this time with different context. A great episode for that was Bake 12, it had 3 instances of this in one episode. First the "we are going on a date." "so it ultimately comes down to that" thing that was in a silly/humorous way and at the end of the episode gets brought up again in a more serious context with "lets kiss". Secondly the "do you love me" and "what do you love about me" thing. First brought up in the car, teasing araragi. Again, a very humorous/silly interaction. Brought up again before the kiss in a more serious context, this time not teasing, but serious. Thirdly when Hitagi's father says "take good care of my daughter". First time it got brought up randomly out of nowhere, again fairly silly/humorous. Then after the father explains how little he could take care of his daughter and all that, he repeats himself. take care of my daughter. you are the man she chose, and i respect you and trust you to take care of her. again, recontextualization to a more serious tone. I think the Hachikuji kiss works similarly on 2 levels. One in the context of the 3 kisses. the first 2 were silly, the third in serious context of a farewell. and of course the "kamimashita" pun recontextualized from a silly situation into a serious/sad one. I just think everything fits in well to make it work. the pun: fits. character motivation: fits. the "narrative" or meta level that is the recontextualization: fits into the show. Without the kiss it would remove at least 2 out of the 3. the character motivation being the only one that is 50/50. A hug could have very well fit the character motivation as well, but then the motivation to try to lighten the mood with a pun is gone. because the pun wouldn't fit anymore. I guess i just think with so much stuff fitting into place, to say a hug would have worked just fine or even to say it'd be more consistent feels kind of off to me. Idk, we just seem to be having different subjective judgements (which is fine) but i guess its just that statements like "it goes to far" are just irritating to me, since they imply objectivity in what you correctly say are subjective judgements. While yea you could argue that everything we say is always just our personal opinion and not statements of fact in the first place(and that is correct), that's just not really how we perceive language and communication. If I say I have a green frog you don't think "oh he believes to have a frog which he perceives to have a green color", you think I have a green frog. That's why I personally(at least try) to include "I think" before many sentences where I don't try to establish something as a "fact" (although I'm not sure on how consistently well I manage to). That being said at least in the first comment I think you did a good job with that (didn't double check the others for this specifically so not sure about those) so I'm not trying to accuse like that. Just that it turned from first my trying to give nuance into a little argument, and kind of trying to find a reason as to why I think that someone's opinion (at least in some specific regards) are upsetting to me personally. Hoping not to offend you with all of this :) Edit: also fuck me those texts always get so long.. ˘ _ ˘

Best girl arc next!

deli

Hachikuji's kiss is the one that anoys me the least of the 3 scenes that I think are too much ("naughty boobs", toothbrush and Hachikuji's kiss), not the kiss that anoys me the least, that would be Ononoki's, since I think it was fitting for her character. And I have no problem with any "sexual nature" of anything. You mentioned my comment on Nise episode 8 and I gave my explanation right there, I don't mind sexual scenes with a justifiable narrative purpose, but if it's results could be obtained in another way that could arguably keep a better consistency, then yes, the over the topness is there just for the sake of fan service and this has no value. Interpretation of scenes, caracters and jokes is completely subjective and you can appreciate any work through whichever lens you've got, you can't define what the "correct" analysis of the situation would be. You think the "bit my tongue" bit is enough to justify the weirdness inserted in the middle of what was supposed to be an emotional scene, I don't. That's why I really like watching reactors actually. Not only info dumping things from the novels to them (lol), but also their discussions and points of view. Monogatari being so rich in its characters that it allows for those conversations is what sells it for me. Any input on my interpretation is part of the fun.

Oh yea i'm not saying you are not aware, i'm just trying to provide the nuance for people interested enough to read all of this ^^ I'm gonna try! to keep it short, so i'm gonna resort more to statements rather than full explainations. I disagree, that monogatari's "core essence" is being a parody of the harem genre. It's "just" one, if not the biggest thing it plays on to make the show what it is. It just has an effect across the series which may make it seem like it is, but it isn't a big point throughout. But when people think of monogatari, or why they watch it, they dont say "because it parodies harem", they think of witty banter, dialogue and wordplay. (and toothbrush, eh what?) Even then, if you came away from that scene with the "false impression that Hachikuji is actually in love with Araragi", then i'd say thats on the interpreter rather than the show. The meaning of "Love" and "kissing" seems to nowdays have mostly reduced to romance. Even though all of us know that it doesn't have to be. You love your family, friends. You may even (have) kissed some of them, but we all know that there is no romantic aspect in that. If we truly understand the araragi/hachikuji dynamic, and understand that "love" and "kissing" aren't exclusively romantic, then i believe we can reasonably comme off of it without thinking that she is romantically interested in him. With that in mind, I think the kiss is the better version. It is adding to the scene, and conversely removing it would take away from it. It turns a simply sad farewell into a bittersweet farewell. And it makes sense. It makes sense that hachikuji would wanna lighten up the mood, it makes sense that she'd chose the silly "kamimashita" running gag, the pun makes sense. Thats why the "i bit my/your tongue" translation is ESSENTIAL. Otherwise the pun wouldn't fit in. The kiss makes perfect sense in context of the pun, it is the reason the pun makes sense even. Sure i'd hug farewell rather than kiss as well, but hell, if there is a pun which involves a kiss to lighten up the mood.. (remember, farewell is especially used for "permanent departure", so the mood is especially sad/gloomy) Adding the running gag that before always was used in silly situations into this farewell is just like another punch in the gut. It adds to the scene, it isn't to its detriment. The first 2 kisses were to build up our expectation for the 3rd, but subverting them by putting it in a completely opposite situation. The first 2 were silly, the last one was depressing. I believe most people when argueing about thse kinds of aspects of the show (lewd/"fanservice-y", basically anything even close to sexual in nature) are doing so in/with an "appeal to disgust". They are uncomfortable with sexuality, and therefore argue that something is "bad", because it makes them feel that way. And i think the whole arguement of "it could have been done with less" is pretty weird in general. They don't work on their own, they need an actual arguement on why it is problematic. On their own they just seem like grandstanding and like there are no actual arguements being brought fourth. Those things are a whole different topic though, and i'm not even sure if it applies to you. (actually after checkeing nise 8 comments i think it may apply, but those are a whole discussion on their own) The post is already this long and I didn't adress the kizu thing. Just keeping it way too short. I agree the direction is one of the good parts on the scene. I'm not sure what it is that you dont like about it then though (based on the things you take problem with in the show it feels like mentioned right above being uncomfortable with the sexual nature of it and all that, but actually figureing that out is a conversation on its own again) I just think we disagree on a fundamental level which causes for us to disagree on why its good/bad. And I'm trying to be nice and not be too antagonistic towards you, but i also don't quite understand how you think that you really like ononoki's kiss, but then go on to say that the hachikuji one is the one that annoys you the least of the 3.. Idk, i just wanted to give extra context/nuance but it somehow turned into an arguement. not sure if this is the right place for that though. I'd be open to somewhere else, though i'm not sure if we'd come to a consensus on this. uh.. idk how to end it off.. so.. have a nice day :)

I'm aware of the situation and nuances behind the kiss, just like the other two scenes I mentioned, it was justifiable, my point is that it wasn't justifiable enough. Monogatari walks a fine thread and, to me, those three scenes are the only times it went a bit overboard (a very good number for almost 100 episodes). My problem isn't that the kiss happened (like I said before, I really like Ononoki's kiss, it fits well), but that the excuse for Hachikuji's wasn't good enough for me, especially since the scene could be clearly better without it. I'll give it to you, this is the one that anoys me the least out of the three, but a much more important joke of the show than Hachikuji's flubbing, actualy down to it's core essence, is that it is supposed to be a parody of harem series. It was thought out to be this way since the start, it's the big point of Bake, the series has almost all the set up that would be found in harem, without being one, so it boils down to how the characters are constructed to keep this nuance. The most important reasons for the series not to turn into a harem are: -the protagonist got himself a girlfriend right from the get go and it's actually a well structured relationship; -the cast isn't all around in love with him, in fact, only two out of ten main girls had romantic feelings towards him and one was promptly shot down, those being Hitagi and Hanekawa (and of course, Nadeko's fake out); and I think this scene does a desservice to that by giving out the false impression that Hachikuji is actually in love with Araragi. And about the "naughty boobs" scene, it was translated to the screen word for word from the novels, my problem with it has nothing to do with the direction of the scene (I actually think it's probably the biggest strength of it).

again just trying to provide a little pushback/nuance on the kiss thing. I can understand and respect your opinion on why you might be uncomfortable with it. Especially since, like you said, their relationship is more like very close friends rather than a romantic interest. HOWEVER, I believe that kiss is (for you, at least from a meta perspective, if not in character) "justifiable" and it may(at least to some degree) be a partial reason for the first 2. Before I go into the reason for why the kiss is there, lets first take a look at what it does (although I will only be looking at it from a meta perspective). - ( it makes Onimonogatari Lolimonogatari (jk, its kind of a meme i guess)) - it adds to the "bonus stage" joke from episode 2, by completing the tripple kissing spree. Ok, but why is it there? (disclaimer: as of writing this i haven't watched the reaction yet, so not sure which subs we have here. but shouldn't matter for the explaination) Well, if we take a look at the running gag hachikuji and arararagi have "shitsurei, kamimashita" is translated differently depending on subs. Which aren't wrong, but one translation (I don't remember which sub group it was) has hit it perfectly throughout the series. Without going too in depth about it, its basically an expression used to say as "to fumble one's words", or "kamimashita" literally translated as "I bit" (well the "I" part is implied, so technically just "bit"), but it means that one misspoke. (It's kind of an idiom, like "kick the bucket" for "dying" in English.). Ok? so what does that mean? Well some subs have used "I flubbed" or similar translations which aren't wrong, but for this situation (and understanding thereof) the translation "i bit my tongue" used by that sub group which name i dont remember is perfect (although it was more a lucky hit rather than the sub group actually having better subs). Now if we take "i bit my tongue" and apply it to this situation, since the meaning of that phrase (that literally translated just means "bit") is just inferred by context, in this situation its wordplay from Nisioisin, basically turning it from "i bit my tongue" to "i bit your tongue". That gives the whole scene a bittersweet touch, since of course.. its the running gag we love, but now put in this context provides a little chuckle while we are crying our eyes out. Nisio has a lot of wordplay in all over monogatari, unfortunately for us (myself included) a lot of it is lost in translation, however with appropriate subs across the series up until now it would be a joke/wordplay that actually is translateable. (only problem being of course that no sub group had any idea when translating that that joke is gonna come, therefore choosing the (accurate as well) translations "flubbed" etc that unfortunately destroy the joke that was build up across the series up until now). I'm going out on a limb here and say that probably most of the time when you see something weird that doesn't seem to make much sense it may very well be a joke that got lost in translation/not translateable and or a cultural barrier. Basically I believe that Nisio wanted to make that wordplay, and the first 2 kisses were an additionnal joke that 1: "prepared" the last one, by making it not quite out of the blue and 2: provided an additional joke. win win. and i don't think they were to the detriment of the characters, since i believe they can be reasonably argued to make sense. The last kiss especially i think can be very reasonalby argued to make sense from hachikuji's perspective. they already have the running gag established, perfect for a pun (just like the running gag always is there for a wordplay pun) in a desperate attempt from her to lighten up the mood. Although i agreed on the top, Kissing doesn't have to be romantic in nature, i mean heck, this is their farewell very well possibly forever.. i mean.. yeah a HUGE hug would have worked as well (heck argueably better), but i dont think a kiss is too far off. Anyways, just some added context/nuance, make of it what you will. I think i may have forgotten stuff i wanted to say/polish in this message, and maybe some parts i haven't explained well, but hey i guss thats what replies are for ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Oh, Quck last thing about the kizu scene, not to fully "excuse" it, kizu (and bake) due to the director had a lot more creative freedom which at some points worked great, at others to the shows detriment, also deviating a lot more from the source material, but it's basically a play at/parody of the "Pre-Climax Climax" trope. Although i think there is a lot good stuff with that scene, i think it may have had a little too much creative freedom. But this isn't a talk about kizu so i'm gonna leave it at that :^)

Contrary to the comment above, the final scene, especially the kiss to me is one of- if not the most emotional scene in Monogatari. Dare I say that this is my fav arc in the series just because of this ending scene.

SAL

And now we finally reached the last scene I've got kind of a problem with in the series, alongside the "naughty boobs" from Kizu and the Toothbrush from Nise, this kiss with Mayoi just rubs me the wrong way. For some reason, Isin just felt like he needed to have Araragi kiss the whole loli trio in a single arc, with the one with Ononoki being the only one that felt natural. To me it just kind of breaks the mood the previous ten minutes of episode were setting. I feel like an emotive goodbye hug would do a much better job of conveying what the scene needed for the farewell of one of the most beloved characters in the series, ESPECIALLY because Hachikuji's love for Araragi is more of a deep friendship, rather than romantic (she is his best friend after all, like Araragi likes making clear all the time in the novels). Still, this is a beautiful episode and a beautiful finale for this arc. Mayoi's farewell never fails to be painful. We also got an explanation to what the Darkness is and the limitations it brings to the world of the series. Aberrations can change the way they are, they are influenced by humans all the time. Like Oshino said in Neko Kuro, even Shinobu started acting more childlike because Araragi was seeing her as a kid and that weighted a lot, since he is the one with the most influence over her. 400 years ago it would have been all fine if Kiss-Shot had, in fact, become a god, but she didn't. She didn't want or tried to be one, she just didn't clear out a misunderstanding and that is the same as lying, so the "darkness" came after her. She just sort of 'let ir roll' that way and that's the problem. It would be easy to counteract this, she could either leave or just accept herself as a god. In Hachikuji's case she wasn't even supposed to be an aberration anymore, she should be in the afterlife, her problem had been solved. On top of that, if you recall at the very end of her arc in Bake, she lied and said "she'd been promoted to a wandering ghost". She just didn't want to leave yet so she fabricated a reason for her to stay in her own head.

Remember back in Otori (Nadeko Medusa) in the sneak-peak-post-credit-scene that Nadeko showed us, when Nadeko mentioned that "If Hanekawa and Kanbaru were there it would be the full-cast"? Yeah, cause Mayoi's gone by then :(