The Antikythera Mechanism Episode 4 - Making And Fitting B2

Thank you mate, will give it a try - Cheers :)

Clickspring

Have you tried a thin film of linseed oil covered with candle soot? Once the oil has dried it would hold a layer of soot in place. Just a thought, haven't tried it though.

Daniel J Bostrom

would be STOKED to replicate this!

Jace Walton

Hey Tim - At this point the model continues to slightly evolve as my understanding of the mechanism and the processes used to build it increases - time permitting I'll publish definitive drawings at the completion of the build.

Clickspring

Hey Luke, yes I think this would be very effective, cheers :)

Clickspring

Will you, at some point, make plans available for Antikythera? I think it would be neat to have them in-hand (and maybe ahead of time, to study) when watching your build videos.

Tim Gleason

Maybe they marked/engraved the lines first .......and then filled them with charcoal or similar to your candle to highlight them. They could have even used a candle then cleaned off the surface leaving the voids with the carbon in them.

Luke Pettit

I was also wondering about wax. If you've ever tried to clean wax off anything, you'll know it certainly stands up to handling, and takes a line or mark well.

Andrew Hecker

I'd suspect that shellac would have been too expensive to use as a layout fluid. It takes a TON of work to make, or did in ancient times.

Leo G.

How about shellac?

Matthew Adams

Thank you mate :)

Clickspring

Yes a good possibility Leo, will definitely check it out :)

Clickspring

I'm just guessing here, but I think that a thin coat of colored wax might also make a suitable layout fluid replacement. It certainly would have been widely available and extremely cheap in ancient Greece, and cleaning it off is a simple matter of heating the parts up and letting it melt. It's also reasonably durable in the context of resisting wear for the length of time it would have taken to mark parts for drilling a pilot hole, or trimming a wheel to final dimension on a foot-powered lathe.

Leo G.

A #2 is a good place to start, but it really comes down to personal preference, and what you're trying to achieve with the cut ie how tight the curves/corners you need to cut, how hard do you like to push the blade, are you interested in rough stock removal or a finished cut etc The tooth pitch varies across the available blade sizes, but also the depth of the blade which I find more important - FWIW, I always have #4, #2, and #2/0 in stock and find those sizes suit the scale & type of work that I do perfectly. Cheers mate :)

Clickspring

As a follow up, what blade is the best for 18g brass? Thanks, Chris.

Alignment Ink

Hey Allan, the saw is a Hegner 1e, and the blades are these: <a href="http://www.jewellerssupplies.com.au/product-group/3508-super-pike-sawblades-pack-144/category/222-sawing" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.jewellerssupplies.com.au/product-group/3508-super-pike-sawblades-pack-144/category/222-sawing</a> For brass I set the speed to stay clear of the harmonic resonance of my bench, usually on the fast side :)

Clickspring

What scroll saw (and settings) are you using to cut your brass sheets?

Alignment Ink

Definitely worth investigating John :)

Clickspring

Cheers Nelson :)

Clickspring

I reckon this one is a real winner Duane, cheers mate :)

Clickspring

Chris-what about a combination of resin, alcohol, and charcoal? The resin would add some durability, the charcoal would add contrast, and the alcohol would evaporate after applying, much like modern layout fluid.

John Costik

I don't know if anyone has suggested that yet, but when the Antikythera is completed, if you are giving it away, you could donate it to a museum. It is such a just beautiful work!

Nelson Baietti

I used to do this in the metal shop or on a roof when I didn't have any dykem. I would measure and or scribe to bare metal, then dab a small amount of touch up on the line/curve, and rub it in to the scribed line with my finger. If I was wearing gloves, I would rub the line and the dirt in on the nitrile glove would bring out the line considerably. I'm wondering if the lines were made more visible after they were marked in this fashion rather than producing a stain on method prior to layout! An inverse layout if you will. Much like a fill in an etch. Thanks Chris for all your efforts and insights into this most historic of devices. I am truly inspired by all the work you have done and the copious amount of intellectual content. All the best mate. Duane

Duane

Great video as always Chris. Keep up the good work. We should start calling you Christos, your honorary Greek name :)

Will give it a look Robert, cheers :)

Clickspring

Cheers Tom, I'm so pleased you're enjoying the vids :)

Clickspring

Asphaltum was mentioned by Herodotus as being available in quantities suitable for mortaring masonry joints in a large fort. It's probably worth exploring.

robert dawson

There were certainly butchers/abattoirs (or butchery-like procedures, even if they only took place on the family farm) back then. I'm not a historian, but I don't _think_ the ancient Greeks had any major use for animal blood at the time. Some cultures throughout history have used animal blood as dyes, in rituals, the making of gelatin (though I think that was at least a thousand years later), etc. And considering how well off, or well backed, the original creator must have been, it's definitely reasonable to think that they collected small amounts of blood from slaughtered animals. However, as you said, it would need to be mixed with something to stabilize it, and probably help it to dry quicker. Either way, that wasn't something that I've seen suggested yet, and it certainly makes for a fun thought experiment! As always. Chris, love the videos, and can't wait for the next one! :)

Jonathan Crider

Thanks for another excellent video Chris! I love the thought that you put into every single piece that you make and also the comparisons of modern materials and equipment to what the ancient folks would have had.

Tom Allen

As disturbing as it may sound, could the maker have used animal blood maybe mixed with something as a dye? Love the video can't wait for the next one!

Yes love the belt sander! I was so pleased when I found that one on Ebay :)

Clickspring

Chris, I wonder.. What of the tolerance of the gears. I know you made those special files, I'm quite certain you'll be fine. But this early in the build, it wouldn't be pretty. It's just hard to imagine how the gears will mesh. Also, with the way the main gear was constructed, now the reinforcement has to be superb! I'm sure, as your filing the teeth of the gears, you get lost as to which one your currently working on. I've noticed, you give each tooth 2 strokes. I do the same thing with keys, when I'm forced to hand file them. Also, I see that belt sander is like your best friend!! :-)

Adam Ackels

I think I like that idea even more - nice lateral approach :)

Clickspring

Nice one Gordon, well worth a look mate, thank you :)

Clickspring

One other thing to think about, is that once scribed, warm colored wax can be rubbed into the line, which will make it stand out cleanly against the bare metal.

Dean Thompson

Thanks Michael!

Clickspring

Cheers Peter :)

Clickspring

Hey Adam, its a little over 5 inches - its a remarkably compact device given the time it was made. Cheers mate :)

Clickspring

Hi Chris, Gordon here. For me both good news and bad news... the good news is that this was yet another 'Chris at his best' videos, super-accurate machining and hand work coupled with a clear and concise explanation. So how about this hypothesis... you tried lamp black and it worked, however only partially successful. The ancient Egyptians about at the time wore clothing made from linen, the product of flax. Flax is also known as linseed, from which linseed oil is, a known drying oil, is pressed. The Egyptians clearly pressed flax seed to render linseed oil. It is well known that both the Romans and Grecians were co-existing and trading by this time, so let's assume, for the purposes of the hypothesis, that the Greeks had an ample supply of linseed oil. Add lamp black to linseed oil and you would result in a black drying oil, when spread thinly, would take a day or two to dry, leaving a no-doubt slightly glossy black finish to the brass/bronze. It is all too easy to dismiss the ancients as low-technology heathens, although the truth is more like they knew then very much of what we know now, only in those days they had to be truly inventive and to be constantly thinking outside the box. That's why the ancient Grecians have taken so much credit in terms of modern mathematics and always remember, Pythagoras' Theory and Archimedes' Principal still hold water (pun, of course, intended) today as they did in ancient Greece. Now for my bad news... I'll now have to wait quite some time until your next superbly presented instalment. My best wishes, as always, and kindest regards, Gordon

Gordon Burns

Some of the oldest cave paintings found in antiquity use ocher. Perhaps this process they used to paint the cave paintings with could be a type of antiquity dye if you would. Here is a link. Cheers! <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/science/14paint.html" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/science/14paint.html</a>

Michael Leady

If someone hasn't suggested it, how about fixing the soot with a very thin wash of shellac. Alcohol both thins and washes off shellac (and many other lac-like substances), but I don't know whether the Greeks had alcohol stronger than a high-alcohol wine (say about 15% ABV). I think you might need something stronger (distilled) like 80% or even higher. Less water in the alcohol is better. Wikipedia says the Greeks were distilling in 100 AD. True shellac (from SE Asia) didn't arrive in Europe until about 1000 years later, but there must have been some substance known by the Greeks to dissolve in alcohol.

Peter W. Meek

Excellent video Chris! But you have my curiosity though. How big around is that main gear, looks to be around 7-8 inches. I'm just wanting to get an idea how large the device is when it's completed. I'm still baffled on how you work in a shop that's that small, and are able to churn out these extremely high quality videos! My hats off to you, and keep up the excellent work!

Adam Ackels

Thanks very much John - Yes a slider for those shots, cheers :)

Clickspring

Possibly Paul :)

Clickspring

When you film the parts revolving do you use a turntable or do you have some kind of dolly or slider for your camera? Your camera work just keeps getting better and better. Just gorgeous.

John Creasey

I was wondering if a tallow candle might make better soot, or perhaps even a whale oil lamp? I guess, animal fat soot rather than petro-chemicals.

Paul Warren

Definitely something to consider Josh - cheers mate :)

Clickspring

Will do Steve, cheers :)

Clickspring

And here I was ready to head out to the reef to snag a squid! Cheers Ray :)

Clickspring

Yes will give it a try Matthew :)

Clickspring

Completely off topic from the etching, but had you thought about making 2 mechanisms (double the work but hear me out)? Making one using the ancient methods and tools, and another using completely modern techniques, such as using the CNC lathe divider and commercial files, or even 3D printing to eliminate as much human error as possible, and then comparing the two to see if they run differently. It would be really interesting to see how different they are. As always great video! Looking forward to the next one.

Josh Schofield

Similar to the rest of the guy's suggestions but extending your soot approach; Setting the soot with an adhesive of some sort would work too.

Steve James

To add to Peter Youngster suggestion, restaurant or catering suppliers would be a source of squid ink, it's used in cooking, particularly in risottos

Ray White

A bit macabre, but I'd think that animal blood might make a good marking fluid.

Matthew Wilson

Yep, I came here to suggest blood as well. When it dries, it's quite durable but still washes off easily.

Timo

Thanks Bill, will give it a crack :)

Clickspring

Another inspirational and exceptional video. Thanks so much for sharing your skill and knowledge with us. I'm thinking a bit of wine applied to the brass would force a rapid patina that would help with the layout. Vinegar would do the same thing

Bill Yester

Thank you mate!

Clickspring

Yes both are worth investigating :)

Clickspring

A good excuse to buy an expensive red for "testing" :)

Clickspring

Excellent video and workmanship!

Rudolph Bescherer Jr

They could still dissolve alcohol-based substances in wine. It would just take longer.

jason black

First marking material that occurred to me was beeswax with soot in it. Beeswax can be pretty sticky, so I'd imagine it would hold on well, especially given the quality of surface finish ancient plate stock probably had. If not that, then shellac, also blackened with soot. Shellac predates the Antikythera mechanism, and can be dissolved with alcohol.

jason black

Terrific to hear that mate! Re fingernails: It helps me keep them clean - I'm bringing you in very close with the camera, and I'd rather not subject you to grubby fingernails :)

Clickspring

Thank you mate!

Clickspring

This is an odd question, but I notice your fingernails are very short- is this a personal choice, or does it help your work? And really liking the insight into ancient ways of the craft!

Scott Martin

Nicely done!

Michael Lloyd

Yes agreed - probably the animal on the other end of the camera!

Clickspring

Thank you mate :)

Clickspring

Roger that - now in search of a docile squid... :)

Clickspring

this might sound batshit crazy, but given the time the original was built. the blood of some animal would probably make good marking fluid.

Strange Duck

wow, you have really outdone yourself this time. im blown away by your ingenuity.

Strange Duck

Chris, it might be messy, but you could try squid ink as a marking out medium. It would have been available.

Peter Young

Well, then I guess shellac is at least a possibility. Unless dissolved in wine, however, it would be a long shot. While it would be possible to apply shellac with heat only, beeswax (and propolis) would have been much more accessible and easy to work with. Shellac would be brittle and have some tendency to chip. By warming the metal and daubing with a cloth dauber, you can achieve a very thin layer. Then smoking it as you did in your vid (but from a little greater distance) you would get something that would hold a very fine scribed line.

Dean Thompson

Cheers mate :)

Clickspring

Cheers Paul :)

Clickspring

Another great video, Chris! Watching the restoration of the Parthenon on the Science Channel, they found the Greeks had all manner of plant based pigments; might be a few good options for marking out dye. As an aside, once this project is complete, I would be very interested in hearing some of the things you tried that didn't work. So much more can be learned from what didn't work than our successes sometimes. Just a thought! :)

Nathan Davey

Chris, your excellently produced and informative videos are getting boring. There is no drama! You must be working like a madman to get all this done. You have changed how I view metal. So much is possible using simple tools.

Paul Devey

Yes I am interested to see the difference - the total eclipse was quite profound :)

Clickspring

I believe you have a partial on Aug. 8,2017

Ralph McCoy

Cheers Ralph - all good suggestions. Great to hear about the eclipse trip - I saw my first (and only) eclipse a few years ago here in Cairns, it was just awesome, something I'll never forget :)

Clickspring

The trade in Wootz crucible steel from India has been established for the period, so I reckon other commodities like shellac are plausible - one thing is for certain, this device was not made on a budget!

Clickspring

Chris, How about animal blood ? Perhaps also bone marrow boiled with some other part(s) infused into the marrow to give it a color. Tree sap? also I will be going out west (US) to see the eclipse. Great vids and workmanship.

Ralph McCoy

Shellac is the secretions of the lac insect, a native to India and Thailand. While it is remotely possible that it would have been available to the ancient Greeks, it would have been as a trade item and very costly. I don't believe it came into common usage in the west until the 1500's or later.

Dean Thompson

Yes a possible option Robert - maybe as color source for the dyes mentioned by Erik above?

Clickspring

What about the juice from crushed berries? Similar to what clothing dyes were made from.

Robert Sindorf

Ah good point on the Alcohol Erik, thank you - that limits the field somewhat :)

Clickspring

I'd think any of the prevalent inks of the time could have been employed as marking fluids as well, since everything should have been water-soluble. They might have increased the amount of animal glue in the mixture to withstand extended handling. No alcohol, though, they'd have been at least a few centuries too early for distillation.

Erik Larsen

A definite possibility Bruce :)

Clickspring

Great video Chris - I wonder if they might have used blood - sets fairly solid - washes off with water

Bruce Edney

Definitely worth a look Danny :)

Clickspring

I wondered the same thing, but I'm not overly keen on donating! Cheers Brian :)

Clickspring

Yes will give it a go David - thank you :)

Clickspring

Thats a good one, will definitely try it, thanks Mark :)

Clickspring

Thanks Eric!

Clickspring

That was my first thought aswell, so what does that say about us? :)

Daniel Rotskas

Another option would be to mix soot or fine ground charcoal with either beeswax or tallow. The craftsman could then brush it on the surface and once cool should be reasonably durable for the time required to make the part.

A bit dark but blood might work well

Brian Gregorka

They could have used a pine resin mixed with soot or ash as a marking fluid. If you dilute it with alcohol it would be easier to apply and dry like a varnish.

David Bates

Great video as always! If they had shellac at the time, then perhaps a coloured solution of shellac and alcohol might have made a good dykem equivalent!

Mark Wilkes

Build is looking great so far. Some great looking shots of your lathe work. Cheers!

Eric

I think there will be some for sure Carlos - worth investigating :)

Clickspring

Any chance there is an easy and primitive way to 'tarnish' the brass chemically to mark it up?

Oh terrific Dean, I can see that working really well - I will give it a run in a future episode, thank you :)

Clickspring

Cheers Austrailian me.

Chris Ivison

Beautiful job as always Chris. Etchers historically used a very thin wax layer that they then smoked as you have here. The smoke adheres to the wax better than the bare metal.

Dean Thompson

Cheers Chris :)

Clickspring

Thank you mate :)

Clickspring

I blinked and it was over. I'm sad now lol. Hopefully the next episode comes out sooner if you've already got all the materials and stuff ready :)

Chris Ivison

Thank you Jess :)

Clickspring

:)

Clickspring

Cheers Ken!

Clickspring

Brilliant engineering as well as craftmanship. Bravo from The Netherlands 👍👍😳

Mienecus Kusters

Beautiful Chris

Jess Neal

Woot! Another video!

Khanh Khong

Yay! My Clickspring fix!