Antikythera Fragment #9 - The Scorper And Trammel
Added 2019-02-03 22:20:48 +0000 UTCHi Folks,
In this video I put forward a proposal for how the spirals on the rear dial of the mechanism may have been formed - please enjoy!
Cheers,
Chris.
Direct video links:
Youtube: https://youtu.be/wtjvWU0Ij-c
Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/315129639/c952742728
-------------- Video Notes: ---------------
Related Videos:
Antikythera Fragment #3 - Ancient Tool Technology - Hand Cut Precision Files - https://youtu.be/SOw9WqMOHjA
Antikythera Fragment #4 - Ancient Tool Technology - The First Hardened Steel - https://youtu.be/V_Mp1fNzIT8
Antikythera Fragment #5 - The First Precision Drill Bit - https://youtu.be/N1aj_3tlQhU
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References:
Metal Working in the Ancient World (Herbert Maryon) - https://www.jstor.org/stable/500498
Tools and Tool Marks. Gold and Bronze metallurgy in Western Europe During the Bronze and Early Iron Ages (Armbruster et al) - https://bit.ly/2GlBDtB
Scriber, Graver, Scorper, Tracer: notes on Experiments in Bronzeworking Technique (Lowery et al) - https://bit.ly/2MOIQDI
“The scholar, the mechanic and the Antikythera Mechanism”, M. T. Wright, Bulletin of the Scientific Instrument Society, lxxx (2003), 4–11.
“Calendars with Olympiad display and eclipse prediction on the Antikythera Mechanism” (Freeth et al), Nature, cdliv (2008), 614–17.
Gears From The Greeks - Derek de Solla Price: http://amzn.to/2pii4ZD
British Museum Hellenistic/Roman Bronze Mirror collection:
Comments
Ha ha! Thank you mate, and good suggestions all :)
Clickspring
2022-11-09 23:06:19 +0000 UTCLoving going through these videos again :) I was thinking, Chris, a centre line on the short end of the trammel beam, near the pivot pin, would enable skill free lining up with the centre line through the two spiral centres, removing any guesswork in stopping/starting the arc there (though I'm sure you get very good at knowing how far around the beam needs to be for a perfect stop at the centre line with practice :) ). And if you bevelled the end of the trammel, before putting the mark on, it would reduce parallax risk. Hmm, it would need the holes for the scorper to be offset so that the scorper's leading edge would coincide with the centre line. Thoroughly enjoyable, for the umpteenth time, as always :)
Duncan Luddite
2022-11-09 22:52:16 +0000 UTCGood morning Chris thankyou for getting back to me at the nonent we areselling our home moving have sold my lathe and mill easyenought to replace once settled but go on researching planning out in my mind construction of the mechanisum get the gears tooth count downm pat first step .. Watchec with intrest your video on Lathe selection tee slots on the saddle are very very handy often missing on many lathes one thing which has caught me out a time or 2 is the choice between metric and imperial and the conversion between them in
Trevor Garrad
2019-11-02 20:48:20 +0000 UTCHello mate, terrific to hear that, and I will be happy to help. Much will continue to change as I work through the rest of the project and the research, but my intention is to publish the definitive CAD files upon completion of both - Cheers :)
Clickspring
2019-10-28 10:16:15 +0000 UTCSorry about the messing around I am having keyboard troubles what I was trying to ask do you have plans available as I would like to start by cutting all the gears (wheels) required in itself a good sized undertaking again many thanks
Trevor Garrad
2019-10-27 03:03:19 +0000 UTCSorry having dramas here try latter
Trevor Garrad
2019-10-27 02:50:21 +0000 UTCTry again Hi Chris again thank you for these fanisating video you have grabed my attention so much so I would like to try my hand at constructing my own replica og the Antikythera mechanisum I hav
Trevor Garrad
2019-10-27 02:49:52 +0000 UTChI cris again thankyou for this fascinating videos on building the Antikythera mechanisum you have grabed my attention so much so I would very much like to h
Trevor Garrad
2019-10-27 02:46:14 +0000 UTCI think your hunch is right in so much as it is a practical and very robust tool that does not need excessive skill to use. You could see apprentices being told to use this all days making blanks cut outs or grooves before graduating to more complex file or engraving work. One point I would like to speculate on, When working those half spirals it surely is better to work from the outside in as if you work from the inside out the coils will flex excessively making the cuts work sideways a fraction. Either way these are lessons you only get from using such a tool and it is gratifying to think that people learnt things back then very much as they do now. Through trial and error. Books are good but there is no substitute for actually working on metal and making mistakes. I've loving these video going down the rabbit hole of ancient tool making. Really gives one perspective about past achievements and how the great engineers works are still standing thousands of years later.
veritanuda
2019-10-15 15:19:57 +0000 UTCTerrific to have you watching Trevor, I too find the subject endlessly fascinating :)
Clickspring
2019-09-28 11:14:51 +0000 UTCHi Chris my name is Trevor Garrad I thank you for this very instructional production regarding the Antikythera mcchanisum it is t has fasinated me for over 50 years have read anything i can find regarding it by no means a expert the amount of prime number amiougnst the gears i find interesting j127 is particular intetresting just how the universe works i imagine the other thing is who made it i donot believe that anyone person was respondsible more a group effort perhaps over a generation or two with a number of prototypes involved nothing ever work on the first attempt there would be a patron who puts up the money someone to work out the veery invoulved maths craftmaen to build it astromners the liost goes on and on built step by step each step being checked out by observations perhaps over years today with our computers large fragments of it we still have trouble making understanding it I know it is all we had but i wonder how many where made and how many proto types where puit aside melted down recycled any way just a thought from a retired ol;d farmer
Trevor Garrad
2019-09-28 10:24:28 +0000 UTCThanks very much David\ :)
Clickspring
2019-04-18 00:30:03 +0000 UTCI am as much impressed by your knowledge of the Antikythera mechanism as I always am by your consistent attention to detail and fine craftsmanship. While casually reading about the mechanism, I never caught on that the spirals are not actual spirals.
David Rector
2019-04-17 21:03:09 +0000 UTCYes - India Ink. Very durable to handling - It is not soluble in either acetone or alcohol, yet comes off with warm water - Absolutely sensational stuff, a real pleasure to use.
Clickspring
2019-02-13 20:12:57 +0000 UTCI am curious. Of the many marking pigments you have tried, have there been any with surprisingly good performance?
Karolus
2019-02-13 20:08:43 +0000 UTCOh God that tool was so satisfying to watch. I think you've really rediscovered something. Amazing
Charlierw
2019-02-09 06:25:13 +0000 UTCTerrific to have you on board mate - I'm not doing any shop visits at present I'm just too flat out with shooting the videos, but I will let you know if that changes - Cheers :)
Clickspring
2019-02-08 11:00:10 +0000 UTCMate you are a god ! I have only recently discovered clickspring and am amazed at your attention to detail,engineering , patience and video skills, I am a small farmer in Mareeba and would love an opportunity visit you and your workshop to try and fathom how to learn some of your skills if you have the time .
John Jennings
2019-02-08 10:47:49 +0000 UTCWow, good lead. <a href="https://grahamhancock.com/hancockg17/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://grahamhancock.com/hancockg17/</a> Most entertaining reading, certainly the academic fights are real. I really liked the apparent open view to lots of new ideas.
David Paterson
2019-02-08 01:37:14 +0000 UTCThanks very much Gerald :)
Clickspring
2019-02-07 23:17:26 +0000 UTCI'm very, very, very impressed by your video and by the ideas, found centuries ago and found again today ...
Gerald Wilhelm
2019-02-07 21:29:22 +0000 UTCCheers John :)
Clickspring
2019-02-05 23:57:15 +0000 UTCHi Ralph, here is the data for my supplier <a href="http://www.georgeweston.com.au/data-sheets/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.georgeweston.com.au/data-sheets/</a> generally speaking its free machining brass, with the composition and temper varying depending on the form in which its provided - Cheers :)
Clickspring
2019-02-05 23:57:04 +0000 UTCI am (was) speaking of brass
Ralph McCoy
2019-02-05 21:55:58 +0000 UTCWhat is your brass Nominal Composition, and is it the same for all your projects ?? Ralph
Ralph McCoy
2019-02-05 21:51:11 +0000 UTCI like the unwinding wire solution that David Paterson suggested, but this is definitely much easier. And it potentially eliminates the need for a lathe. Sorry to hear about flooding in your locale.
John P
2019-02-05 21:05:10 +0000 UTCThank you mate - yes its been hard on Townsville, we've been very lucky so far - Cheers :)
Clickspring
2019-02-05 09:09:44 +0000 UTCThanks Sean - Yes Bunnings Tassie Oak - may possibly be a little more durable in metal, but I have a feeling that wood was the tool construction material of choice - Its just so quick and cheap to work with, and kinda hits the "good enough" quality/durability threshold without pushing into expensive territory. Impossible to know for sure of course, but I'm wary about proposing metal versions without it being essential. Bronze being so expensive in the period, there would have been a strong incentive to substitute with a cheaper material where possible. All good with the drill bits, nothing to report, they're working well. Yes had enough of this years wet. We've had no real chance to dry out for over a month, but nowhere near as bad as they're copping it in Townsville - Cheers mate :)
Clickspring
2019-02-05 09:08:00 +0000 UTCYes a little nervous; lots of time invested in these parts now - Cheers mate :)
Clickspring
2019-02-05 08:52:47 +0000 UTCThank you Eiki!
Clickspring
2019-02-05 08:50:30 +0000 UTCThank you Ralph :)
Clickspring
2019-02-05 08:49:51 +0000 UTCHa ha! Cheers mate :)
Clickspring
2019-02-05 08:49:39 +0000 UTCVery cool Chris, I had a vision of a wire unwinding from a bobbin of known diameter to do the spiral, yours is much more practical. second the best wishes for the weather - I was in Townsville for the flooding in '91, and this is much worse. cheers
David Paterson
2019-02-05 02:53:59 +0000 UTCLovely work, Chris. Gotta admit that I didn't see that turning solution coming, not even close. It is so simple and effective. 0.1mm accuracy is impressive. Conceptually I was still stuck in a lathe model. Too used to modern tech, I guess. Blinded me to simpler answers. I note you used what looks like Tassie Oak for the trammel, which is a fairly strong and stable wood. Do you think that making the trammel from brass would significantly improve accuracy, and especially reliability (i.e. precision or reproducability)? <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_oak" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_oak</a> Also, how are your bespoke spade drill bits holding up? Any issues with them? Lastly, wet enough for you of late? :) Cheers
Sean Kirby
2019-02-05 01:49:26 +0000 UTCI will be searching that name thanks!
Wayne Nocton
2019-02-04 21:32:05 +0000 UTCCheers Jerry :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 21:06:56 +0000 UTCYes Randall Carlson's theory of the scablands flood is an absolute eye popper - Cheers :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 21:06:18 +0000 UTCYes agreed Paul. Its a really interesting theme that keeps popping up - Hard to give a good estimate on time to complete various bits because of filming but I'd guess a bit over an hour to shape and heat treat the blade - Cheers :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 20:58:36 +0000 UTCThank you mate :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 20:51:57 +0000 UTCGreat vid Chris TFS, were you nervous making the first cut? turned out a bit nice like. G :)
Graeme Brumfitt
2019-02-04 19:29:01 +0000 UTCThat moment when the first off-center arc connects with the centered one is beautiful!
Eiki Martinson
2019-02-04 18:14:54 +0000 UTCI wonder what is ancient Greek for nerd. Great video, explanation, your sir are a class act
Ralph McCoy
2019-02-04 17:33:10 +0000 UTCMy only problem with those videos is... they are kinda NSFW... if you work in engineering, no excuses here :D
Strothy2
2019-02-04 16:28:41 +0000 UTCAmazing work and filming as always. Have you watched any of the newer theories about the pyramids being built by an older civilization that was taken out by another impact around 12,000 years ago, saying that the Egyptians were descendants of them and their lost technologies? Imagine something so severe that everything we now know is forgotten and everything we have built erased except the pyramids and perhaps the Hoover Dam and a few other large things.
Wayne Nocton
2019-02-04 15:32:59 +0000 UTCAs always this is just brilliant. Once you pointed it out it all makes sense how something so complicated could be done with very little. It is certainly clear that all of our modern tools simply makes things quicker and not much else. Out of interested how much time did it take to make the scorper?
Paul Busby
2019-02-04 11:04:26 +0000 UTCthats so simple but soooo impressively powerful
Jerry Vella
2019-02-04 10:25:35 +0000 UTCAnother superbly considered piece in the puzzle. Absolutely fascinating. Great job Chris.
Gary Knight
2019-02-04 10:13:08 +0000 UTCCheers Matthew, so pleased to hear that :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 10:05:04 +0000 UTCThanks Kevin :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 10:04:41 +0000 UTCThanks very much Emma :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 10:04:09 +0000 UTCThank you Derek :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 10:03:31 +0000 UTCHa ha! Thank you mate :)
Clickspring
2019-02-04 10:03:08 +0000 UTCAbsolutely Smashing! Loving every episode. Thank you!
Matthew Dormer
2019-02-04 06:41:56 +0000 UTCBrilliant as always. I keep thinking you're just leading us pateons on stringing out this whole thing. But you consistently publish ideas like this. I remember way back when you were gluing brass to aluminum and spinning it off on a lathe. You just showed how they could have made the gears without a lathe. Brilliant.
Kevin Reardon
2019-02-04 05:37:40 +0000 UTCAgreed, a fine piece of science. Bravo
Bob Ogden
2019-02-04 04:15:36 +0000 UTCthats crazy work by 2019 standards, let alone from the greeks. as always, impressed and humbled.
Emmas Spareroom Machineshop
2019-02-04 01:34:17 +0000 UTCFantastic speculation on the possible method for cutting these parts. The knowledge you are sharing with the world is invaluable!
Derek Meisenhelder
2019-02-04 01:06:43 +0000 UTCAmazing as always. Your videos are almost a step by step description on how to go about rebuilding everything if we get knocked back to the stone age... I can see it now... Thanks to you and Tony mucking about in time, A transcribed and translated copy of your videos ended up in the hands of some ancient alchemist or craftsman and Bam! Just like Scotty from Star Trek with transparent aluminium, Tony is his own grandpa and you created the backbone for enough precision tools to lead to time travel... Well played :)
Clifton Ballad
2019-02-04 00:21:01 +0000 UTCCheers Erik :)
Clickspring
2019-02-03 23:22:40 +0000 UTCThat was lovely.
Erik Ordway
2019-02-03 23:21:01 +0000 UTCYes I agree Phil - the perishability of both wood and iron cutting tools means a lower probability of survival. Its kind of ironic that the softer bronze artifacts tend to be the items that actually survive - Cheers :)
Clickspring
2019-02-03 23:09:23 +0000 UTCOne of the earliest lathe-like mechanisms I've ever seen is basically a small tree bent over (for the tension) with a rope around a horizontal spindle. A pedal mechanism is used to drive the shaft forward and backwards (clockwise & counter-clockwise), with cuts only being made in one direction. So, knowing that, you can imagine that nothing would really survive into modern times, since it didn't really involve anything long-lasting.
Phil DeJarnett
2019-02-03 23:05:32 +0000 UTCThanks Richard :)
Clickspring
2019-02-03 23:04:24 +0000 UTCThanks Erik - at present the best estimates would be late middle ages for a physical example of wood working lathe technology. There are many examples of apparently turned items from the Hellenistic period, but nothing at all of the turning tech itself - The AM is very possibly the key to pinning down the metal working lathe detail - More to come on that one :)
Clickspring
2019-02-03 23:04:12 +0000 UTCJust amazing work...
Richard Thompson
2019-02-03 22:45:49 +0000 UTCAwesome video, I couldn't even see how those spirals would be formed until you laid out the first couple of half-circles on the ink. You mentioned that there's no physical examples of tools like these from the time period, do you know of the earliest example of a surviving lathe or similar? A bit of Googling didn't get me very far, but it's fascinating that we'd have plenty of evidence for tools like these without any of them surviving to modern times.
Erik Larsen
2019-02-03 22:45:19 +0000 UTCThank you Gert!
Clickspring
2019-02-03 22:43:15 +0000 UTCAmazing bit of experimental archaeology you're doing here. Inference and interpolation yielding possible answers to mysteries that can then be tested. A fine bit of science!
Gert Sønderby
2019-02-03 22:42:45 +0000 UTC
