What's Wrong with the Democrats?
Added 2024-11-16 18:25:37 +0000 UTCIn our first episode after the 2024 elections, we briefly considered what the results revealed about how Donald Trump won, and why Kamala Harris lost, before discussing what Trump's first picks for his White House staff and Cabinet meant for his second term as president. This conversation is different—a proper "post-mortem" of the results and a bit of a group therapy, mixed with wide-ranging reflections on what it all says about the state of Democratic Party, the country, and perhaps even our souls. Topics include: a (long) list of all the reasons that might account for Harris's defeat, the deranged attempt to keep Biden as the nominee despite his obvious decline, the Democrats' decades-long defensiveness on "cultural issues," why Trump's felony convictions didn't seem to hurt his campaign, the lost promise of 2020 and a politics of care and solidarity, the debate over "Bidenomics," and much more!
One small note: we mention the controversy over Harris not appearing on Joe Rogan's podcast, and after we recorded further reporting came out on the decision. Rather than re-recording that section or deleting it altogether, we thought we'd keep it in, with listeners determining for themselves what explanation makes the most sense.
Sources:
Zack Beauchamp, "The Global Trend that Pushed Donald Trump to Victory," Vox, Nov 6, 2024
Shane Goldmacher, Maggie Haberman, and Jonathan Swan, "How Trump Won, and How Harris Lost," New York Times, Nov 7, 2024
Matthew Sitman, "The Morning After," Liberties, Nov 7, 2024
Gabe Winant, "Exit Right," Dissent, Nov 8, 2024
Tim Barker, "Dealignment," Sidecar, Nov 11, 2024
Sam Adler-Bell, "Can Liberalism Stop Being So Darn...Liberal?" New Republic, June 20, 2024
Comments
No doubt there is a lot of shitty discourse out there, and many bigoted assholes getting very confortable in their crap views and behaviors, they are multiplying and we’re not going to chase them away with Bernie’s magic wand. However, poor and working class Trump voters - a fairly significant chunk of which were not white nor men - supported him not only in spite of his bigotry but in spite of his being a billionaire. Whether they think he is going to bring down the price of eggs, end the wars, close the border or outlaw pronouns, the resentment and cynicism that drove a growing base of millions to identify with a bigoted billionaire cannot be explained merely as “backlash” from an intrinsincly reactionary and morally corrupt mass of deplorables. The culture war itself is a corollary of material circumstances. A lot of people were not bigoted eight or twelve years ago, they got there as a result of a growing malaise, which is both cultural and economic (the two intersect). In the absence of a class based mobilisation that could have offered an alternative to economic inequality, the ideological upstaging of genuine emancipatory politics by superficial forms of identity politics is what fed the fire of bigotry. Many started to associate cultural changes with the societal decay they saw all around them because it’s much easier for the average person to warm up to cultural change and think in terms of solidarity if they see their own lives getting better, as opposed to worse. The lib establishment did not push these progressive identity issues as part of a true emancipatory project. Instead they recuperated them to make up for their betrayal of working people, which effectively ammounts to pitting the whole working class against minorities (ultimately at the expense of both). It amounts to pitting a diversity of individuals and groups against each other, and to making a purportedly emancipatory project sound like a bourgeois assault on common sense. Of course ending discriminations, pushing for the mainstream acceptance of transexuality or more radical ways to understand what racism is are all examples of very good things that we should continue to embrace. But the whole thing got shit-coded. Advocacy in favor of minorities got turned into bland, self-righeous and often very stupid political correctness. Social currency and distinction signifyers for narcicists on social media ; for corportations to peddle corny and bogus campaigns self-congralating their iconoclast sensitivity to social justice ; for diciplinarian bullies enforcing the use of what felt like annoying, constantly evolving newspeak to most, and other rules assepticizing culture ; for progressive rich people and educated youth to patronize ordinary people ; for self-obsessed white guilt ; for oportunists perverting concepts like patriarchy to smear Bernie in favor of Hilary in 2016 (identity-reductionism) etc. Except of course, the right is much better at this kind of little game (which is reactionary either way), and the left opened those gates really wide for them. Leaving us in this situation where a billionaire can convincingly posture as a populist while the democrats mimic him or turn the corner and run.
Paul Lemaire
2025-01-23 21:28:48 +0000 UTCWe'd all like to see a dynamic "people's party" which enacts progressive legislation. But that would require a convincing electoral MANDATE - not a near 50-50 split that allowed people like Manchin and Synema to block change. And a conservative judiciary can - and will - throw out any laws or regulations which threaten the owning class. We really need a Congress with a large progressive majority to have any hope of making a difference. It's ridiculous to blame the Democrats when the House is in the hands of MAGA. I thought the Sunday school chastising was unnecessary, as well. It's okay to let off steam - it's a personal matter, not a political tactic.
Kit Loekle
2024-12-06 13:54:38 +0000 UTCYou’re referring to people as animals. What does this remind me of?
Benjamin Pletcher
2024-11-25 08:39:15 +0000 UTCAs a leftist who has always lived in red states, I got a little defensive over the anti-FAFO moralizing. The low key normalization of bigotry to acceptance of outright hateful stances on marginalized populations by, like, 2/3s of any given group of people you might be in will grind you down eventually. You come at things logically, emotionally, by establishing mutual beliefs, by keeping your head down and practicing what you preach, by taking the moral high road etc etc. It literally does not matter what you do -- a lot of people just have core beliefs that are hateful, illogical, whatever. Is there a personal moral imperative to take the high road? Sure. May I be worthy of my sufferings and also not permanently damage relationships with significant portions of my extended family, workers and acquaintances. But don't chastise me for being angry and frustrated, please.
Hannah Vig
2024-11-23 03:52:34 +0000 UTCAnother two issues I hope to address. First, elitism and snobbery of many of the PMC elements of the Democratic Party. Hillary Clinton’s calling Trump’s working class and rural people a “basket of deplorables” and her “just listen to Brooklyn” approach to her 2016 campaign exemplifies this issue. I suggest reading Thomas Frank’s work, especially “Listen Liberal.”https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25666062 Secondly, the lack of consideration of the material factors of the “culture war.” The pro-life movement, for example, ignored evidence of widespread abortion arising during the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century and the growth of clerical jobs in the early 20th.
Chad Bailey
2024-11-22 16:16:54 +0000 UTCYou guys- fantastic!!! Revelatory as always.
Kathleen Reeves
2024-11-22 01:27:18 +0000 UTCI live in Nicole Maliotakis’ office’s neighborhood. As prologue: I’m tired of my values not being represented and I’m thinking about going and working for her so I can get a better idea of what makes her, and those like her, successful. Id work hard and operate in good faith, but I doubt my progressive ideologies would be altered. You touched on something real with the shame and powerlessness felt after this election. Pair that with the Dems’ lack of a coherent value structure and I feel an interesting, and often overlooked truth starts to coagulate. Organizers have been following failed politicians for decades. Craftspeople teaching all the wrong lessons. The number of acquaintances Ive known who think they are good at political organizing because they helped Obama or Hilary or Biden or Kamala is fairly large. To a real degree, we are looking at the reality that even the successes of the Democrats are being rewritten as failures…and how does that not generate a bit of shame? Maybe Im naive though. I’m sure Im not alone, but I am certainly navigating new emotional territory here.
Brendan Costello
2024-11-21 18:50:19 +0000 UTCI have helped trans people move to sanctuary states before and I’ll do it again. I’ll do everything I can for them even if it kills me in the end. If I have to give moral consideration to this barn animal electorate to be progressive then fuck it, I’m not progressive. The idea these people should get to vote in our elections, or get to vote on matters of the economy directly, is unconscionable. Why not throw the nuclear football into the cage of the most ill tempered chimp at the Bronx zoo while we’re at it? They’re not future socialists who need the right messaging to realize it. They’re not citizens in any sense. They’re pigs who demand their trough be filled with streaming service slop and taxi delivered burritos, and if they don’t get it cheap enough theyll eat eachother like hogs too. I sincerely hope you never have to learn that lesson the hard way.
Vanguard Kas
2024-11-20 21:18:13 +0000 UTCOh yes because bending over backward for that half certainly works. Even when the opponent is promising a pro Great Depression platform in the most incoherent rambling speeches you’ve ever heard in your life.
Vanguard Kas
2024-11-20 21:09:58 +0000 UTCYou seem to believe that Deocrats running for national office proovided full throated support for Trans people, which is, frankly, an astounding thing to believe.
Jamie McAfee
2024-11-20 19:15:00 +0000 UTClol my affectively-charged rage at the outcome had nothing to do about shame and everything to do with years-long disdain for the democrats.
Zac Chapman
2024-11-20 17:01:24 +0000 UTCComments like this point to the degree to which woke/anti-woke (sorry, I know) discourse has mostly become an internecine fight among the left (very broadly defined). The Dems overperformed in 2022 precisely because of a cultural issue (abortion) and my read of the information we have about 2024 so far suggests that the economy and border are the big issues the median voter cared about (because, you know, that’s what they’ve been saying and continue to say). Also, given that the Harris campaign (and Biden before her) ran pretty far from “culture wars” issues, it doesn’t look to me that “pronouns” are the main driver of the fortunes of Democrats in the last few years. I suspect there are a handful of swing voters who probably voted for Trump in 2024 based on culture wars issues, but I also suspect most culture warriors picked a side a long time ago and they’re not really in play, as far as electoral politics go (if I see evidence to the contrary, I’m happy to change my mind about that). And yet, there are whole swaths of the internet where people scream about how wokeness is what’s losing it for the Dems. The fascinating thing to me, however, is that these folks come from all over the “left” spectrum. James Carville, the most centrist, industry Dem is a “wokeness” is ruining the Dems guy (he blames “the left”). But lots commentators on the actual left who think this seem to want to blame mainstream Dems and liberals for woeness. I guess it makes it seem to me like this is a fight less about the actual wins and losses of Democrats (because, once again, the best information we have doesn’t seem to suggest this is the core of Dem success and failure) and more an internal fight over the direction of the left that is being positioned as strategically mind reading voters but is really about the personal preferences of the various people in the fight and who on “their side” they blame for the left’s failures.
T N
2024-11-20 13:32:11 +0000 UTCIn our two-party system, a vote “for” is a vote “against”. To many people, the way the Democratic Party leaned into the bigoted culture war foisted upon them made them seem smarmy and arrogant. A lot of folks are tired of it. I would’ve preferred more populist economic policy wrapped up with more green new deal. I hope everyone enjoys their pronouns, because in 10 years we might not have a planet.
don't call me, i'll call you
2024-11-20 05:38:06 +0000 UTCNothing you just wrote about can be disaggregated from class. There is no such thing as a moral imperative that can overcome the necessity of class analysis.
Benjamin Pletcher
2024-11-19 22:48:53 +0000 UTCSomething I have been frustrated with in the leftist response to Trump’s electoral victory is the reductionist narrative that Kamala’s failure was exclusively or primarily about class. In my opinion, leftists’ nearly instantaneous jump to class-based explanations for Trump’s win (at the expense of cultural or identity-based explanations) feel like a mirror image of Nancy Pelosi’s class-agnostic interpretation. In my view, these perspectives both reveal an inability to engage with the explanations ACTUAL Trump voters are providing for why they voted for trump. As someone who wishes to see the Democratic Party adopt more populist economic policies and stop licking the boots of big business, I also think it is imperative that leftists also address that millions of Americans voted for trump BECAUSE he was a bigot, not despite of it. Trump’s team surely recognized the centrality of cultural issues for their base. He spent $215 MILLION DOLLARS on his anti-trans campaign ad, making no mention of the price of eggs or American jobs. Millions of Americans voted for Trump because they genuinely believe women are second class citizens, because they think trans people are disgusting, because they want to put uppity people of color in their place. As a young person in America, I know this because I see and hear it every day. The terrifying reality is, millions of Americans have embraced a fucking fascist with open arms. Bernie’s whole notion (that he articulated in that horribly uncomfortable interview with Michael Babaro) that if only democrats would adopt some lefty economic policies, everyone would regain their senses is, quite frankly, a self-indulgent fantasy. Confronting the democrats’ failure to develop a transformational economic policy should not come at the expense of clear-eyed confrontation of the fact that the majority of young American men talk like Hitler Youths.
Charlotte Lokey
2024-11-19 19:22:30 +0000 UTCTo put this retrospective in the form of a folksy saying: "The Democrats played a bad hand poorly."
Still Want Willkie
2024-11-19 17:04:10 +0000 UTCAgreed. I had to stop listening — Matt and Sam’s comments seemed to skate over the hurt and betrayal many of us feel towards these voters. I am incredibly unhappy about what might happen to the Muslim leaders and the friends and neighbors of the Latino man they mentioned, just as I am afraid my Trump-voting father will lose Medicare. But the fact remains that given the choice between two imperfect candidates, they chose the one who will do more active harm to people and to democratic institutions. That was their choice, and all of us have to live with the consequences. I also think the valence of FAFO changes depending on who’s saying it toward whom. It’s not only white middle class liberals saying it, and to have those distinctions glossed over by Matt and Sam, whose opinions I respect, does come off as hurtful and somewhat sanctimonious.
Rebecca Skirvin
2024-11-19 15:13:13 +0000 UTCgood thing you're not actually important to any movement building or organizing. very weird to fantasize about the pain and suffering of marginalized people and claim to be progressive in any way. and frankly, if you were able to vote for genocide Joe/killer kamala, then you already know how easy it is to vote for disgusting avowed blood thirsty racists.
Rai
2024-11-19 13:53:37 +0000 UTCMaybe FAFO is about you, who think you can afford to write off half the country with vanguard shaming.
Benjamin Pletcher
2024-11-19 07:33:41 +0000 UTCThe calculus that the Democratic Party is the last wall against the white walkers cannot be entirely realpolitik, so long as it is the very same Democratic Party that has laid the long bridge on which Winter has come. It is partly realpolitik, but partly ideological. In the way that to ‘hate the Democratic Party’ is to hate oneself.
Benjamin Pletcher
2024-11-19 06:13:14 +0000 UTCThis was summed up by another political streamer in the statement “the left has civility as its core aesthetic, while the right holds contempt” Until we stop holding onto these aesthetics (whining, suffering is noble, meek shall inherit the earth, moral victories, etc) , then we will get bulldozed
Jonathan Hung
2024-11-19 06:02:34 +0000 UTCThe last chapo cast has an episode on this and I’m finding it fascinating
Jonathan Hung
2024-11-19 05:57:47 +0000 UTCThat was my careless comment. I probably am not ready to analyze anything. Words and listening to words spoken on the subject don't seem to be helping.
mark o'hare
2024-11-19 04:44:43 +0000 UTCLove you guys and love the pod. Was just curious if you’ve reflected on the fact that since recording Palmieri has said she got her recollection of the events leading to Harris not going on Rogan wrong, and instead has said the version of events out by the campaign and verified previously by Rogan are correct? That instead it didn’t happen because of scheduling. Not that it subtracts too much from your wider point of “she still should have done it” because I agree, but given the recriminations it caused you guys at first blush, just wanted to know where you come down. https://x.com/jmpalmieri/status/1856807303171002554?s=46&t=KJvvR0WTyQ8VbBHMzQpLFw
Remington Spoor
2024-11-19 03:08:04 +0000 UTCHave we been creating "degenerate" art for 44 years, really that's your take?!?
Rebecca Casey
2024-11-19 02:55:25 +0000 UTCinsane not to mention that child poverty tripled since 2021
Rai
2024-11-19 01:32:57 +0000 UTCDo either of you feel like you tempered your criticism of Harris on this podcast in order not to discourage people from voting for her? No judgment; I’m genuinely curious. It’s an interesting ethical bind for the age of podcasting
Tim Combes
2024-11-18 20:42:12 +0000 UTCAccelerationism truly is the bitter consolation prize of all electoral losers. I hope you're right about this, but Trump is already incredibly unpopular. The problem is that Dems are as well. A rejection of Trumpism will not redound in the Democrats' favor unless they are seen as a serious vessel capable of channeling that anger and creating a better world. And as a corollary to that, even if Dems manage to run on this sort of platform, it will not matter unless they BECOME a credible vessel for anti-Trumpian politics and actually wield power effectively (and yes, that probably includes trampling over anti-democratic institutional hurdles that the Republicans will cling to while out of power). We saw this happen in 2020, when Americans selected Biden as a repudiation of Trumpism and then Biden completely failed to prosecute Trump or effectively oppose many of Trump's signature "accomplishments" despite the uncharacteristically strong midterms he was gifted in 2022.
Will Hubbert
2024-11-18 20:34:17 +0000 UTCI didn't learn about the senate and why the electoral college is bad until I was listening to chapo for years. The left needs to educate the general public who don't understand why the electoral college is bad and how every left wing government in modern history has been overthrown by the CIA. If we don't talk about it, the "normies" won't ever hear about these topics
Ross Moore
2024-11-18 20:23:39 +0000 UTCAll I hear about on shows like chapo trap house, is Will Meneker blaming everything on liberals. If trump wins it was because the liberals weren't left enough. If trump deports migrants, it's because the liberals let them. Instead of the left whining about liberals, they need be talking about the senate and electoral college every single day until you're average voter actually knows about it.
Ross Moore
2024-11-18 20:21:33 +0000 UTCI will say that there are leftists who understand the deep issues with the senate, the electoral college, the filibuster, etc. and still don't talk about them enough. The problem is that doing away with these anti-democratic features of American democracy isn't feasible right now, so leftists who are trying to work within the limits of the possible (aka electoral politics) mostly don't discuss those goals openly. I think the people making this rhetorical choice do so because they're afraid that it will be too easy to paint any efforts to fix anti-democratic features of our system as themselves "anti-democratic" or "anti-American," and it's better to save these planks of the platform for a point when they've actually built enough power. The problem is that it's almost impossible to build that much power in a system that's shackled by these anti-democratic features (very much by design), so these people are keeping their powder dry for a day that will never come. The leftists who openly talk about how all these features of "American Democracy" suck are by and large the ones who have written off the entire electoral system as a viable vehicle for meaningful change and instead organize towards (or at least support the idea of) a revolutionary vanguard leading the working class in a revolution against the ruling classes of this country. The problem is that this also doesn't seem all that feasible under current conditions-- it's not like the Red Guard guys you used to see frog-marching around Pittsburgh were a more serious threat to the system. I would support something like the course you're suggesting, openly talking about remaking American democracy as a way of generating mass support even with an understanding that this remaking would require you to operate outside of the traditional constraints of what is politically possible. I think that 2016 and 2024 show that Americans are dissatisfied enough with current conditions that they're willing to embrace candidates who tell them that we can improve conditions by remaking or destroying hallowed American institutions. The problem is that there are lots of people who do not understand their immediate problems in these terms and will just hear more talk about things like "the filibuster" as boutique issue bullshit that Dems use to distract from pocketbook issues. Trump's essential success comes from his ability to connect his demands to destroy American democratic life with his (claimed) mandate to improve the situation of his supporters. That appetite for an anti-institutionalist in the Republican base didn't appear overnight-- more mainstream Rs have created the conditions for a would-be dictator's rise within their party for decades. I don't think Bernie went far enough in trying to run against the party, but I also don't think the Democratic base is radicalized enough for this approach to work in any sort of symmetrical way.
Will Hubbert
2024-11-18 20:06:45 +0000 UTCIt definitely seems like the worldwide anti-incumbency wave is the most sensible overarching explanation for what happened here. After all, Dems have been in executive power for 12 of the last 16 years, and people are rightfully unhappy with the status quo. Things were bound to swing back at some point, and the relative strength of down ballot Dems in swing states, plus the generally depressed turnout, definitely indicates that pundits are wildly overstating this election as some sort of ideological sea change in the electorate. The perverse thing is that Trump benefited from anti-incumbency AND a kind of pseudo-incumbency. It’s crazy to me that a man who was president a mere four years ago doesn’t seem to bear any of the blame for the current state of affairs. The shortness of our memories and our idealization of the past are well documented phenomena but this is such an extreme case. Four years! As an aside, the Mexican pro-incumbent counter-example this year should really validate leftist critiques of the Dems.. but I can say with some certainty that that is not going to be the party’s takeaway :/
Reggie Debris
2024-11-18 16:46:33 +0000 UTCI would NEVER vote for Trump, but I couldn't bring myself to vote for Kamela after seeing them send Richie Torres and Clinton to Michigan. They ran on the concept of military keynesianism, and I am too disgusted to associate with them. I don't know if I can forgive myself for not voting, but I know that they didn't deserve my vote.
Leonardo Restrepo
2024-11-18 16:29:38 +0000 UTCLook, back of napkin math: NOTHING the Democrats said or did communicated any commitment to a two state solution or ANY breaking with Israel. It is obvious that Netanyahu expanded and worsened the war in Gaza and Lebanon to increase the likelihood of Trump winning, and while this is a hunch, it is likely that he did so to secure an improved political settlement regarding Area C in the West Bank or the northern part of Gaza. Whatever peace Trump brings will be a bastardized peace that further entrenches the denigration of Palestinians, but it won't be the sustained killing that the Democrats are apparently fine with.
Leonardo Restrepo
2024-11-18 16:26:15 +0000 UTCAmerica stopped exporting good art around 1980, so this show has been over for some time now. I wouldn't really call that the Democratic Party's fault.
mark o'hare
2024-11-18 06:30:43 +0000 UTCThe country more so cut its tits off. Try being calm when you turn around and a self mastectomy has just been done and Lady Liberty is coming at you with the knife. That’s what I feel is happening right now.😭
Wesley Chambers
2024-11-18 05:21:22 +0000 UTC“Pay attention to the state of your soul.”
Little Beruit Dweller
2024-11-18 04:58:23 +0000 UTCOne of the best election post-mortems I’ve heard. Serious question: who on the left unironically accepted the idea that Trump was a “Peace Candidate?” I just can’t believe that anyone could be that stupid.
Behold 666
2024-11-18 04:49:02 +0000 UTCyes!
Paul Bowman
2024-11-18 03:12:47 +0000 UTCOnce Matt said "don't look back" Sam couldn't get his mind off of Bob.
his eyes just tell him lies
2024-11-18 02:52:15 +0000 UTC❤️❤️❤️ to Matt at 23:14. Could not agree more
Laura
2024-11-18 02:33:01 +0000 UTCSam’s “you fucking idiots” comment really got me lol
Sam
2024-11-18 02:16:30 +0000 UTCOkay, I keep hearing this thing about how covid led to a global anti-incumbency sweep. But what I rarely, if ever (maybe once) hear is how do you explain Mexico, where a leftist President (arguably social democrat) who mishandled covid, at least at the beginning of the pandemic, left office with 70% popularity and his preferred successor, who handled covid spectacularly as mayor of Mexico City, was elected with 60% of the popular vote and her/their party swept elections at municipal, state, and national levels and a dramatic decline in the fortunes of the Mexican right. I think there's something we and our political parties of the centre-(supposedly) left can learn from this glaring exception. It's not enough to mention it as an outlier - we need to understand what happened and why, both where incumbents lost and where they didn't lose and why it went one way or the other. Mexico is part of North America, so don't diss it like it's some weird exception to the normal world.
Jeff Sommers
2024-11-18 01:17:49 +0000 UTCSort of don’t want to be listening to this episode right now (even if I do have a comment asking for something like it on one post or other below), but will say that getting to hear Matt wax briefly vitriolic on the Ds does me good.
Paul Bowman
2024-11-18 01:13:38 +0000 UTCI hear that making Gay Vatican Gossip episodes is really relaxing. Just sayin'.
Ian Derk
2024-11-17 23:32:14 +0000 UTCOMG MATT IS SO ALPHA
Sam
2024-11-17 23:23:50 +0000 UTCThe great irony being that "voters failed the Democrats" is a *deeply* anti-small-"d"-democratic sentiment.
Peter Aidan Byrne
2024-11-17 22:33:38 +0000 UTCSending Richie Torres to Michigan is one of those things that pushes me in the direction of the Schadenfreude of “punish the Democrats”. Boy did they deserve to lose after that. In either case, I will always direct my ire at the party and the politicians, not at the voters. Agree that the “hope you get deported” rhetoric is just pure ugliness. And Kamala going on Rogan might’ve sparked a backlash of Rogan fans against Rogan, which if nothing else, would’ve been funny.
Axel Herrera
2024-11-17 22:27:46 +0000 UTCWhat Sam said around an hour fifteen about leadership hit the nail on the head for me. I've been marvelling at the Democratic partisans in the media like Joy Reid saying that Kamala didn't fail, the voters failed HER. It seems to me this is some backwards ass political thinking; Kamala and Biden and Walz could all have pushed against the rightist turn and given people a reason to vote for them. They could have made substantive political distinctions based on moral principle. Instead, they adopted positions mirroring the Trump line on fracking, "the border," and war. They chastised their own base and courted the moderates and neocons, people who are more statistical averages than real constituencies. They lost the election because they lost a massive amount of votes from 2020 where as Trump's vote was nearly static. And they did that because they did more to actively alienate their own constituencies than to promulgate a positive vision that would benefit them.
DC
2024-11-17 22:10:53 +0000 UTCConservatives would be complaining about it every day if it hurt them and they would get it changed eventually. The left needs to see what conservatives do and copy it because the right is actually successful at getting their agenda done. Instead of leftists whining about liberals not being left enough they should be complaining about the senate. Even is bernie had won in 2016 there is no way he could have gotten medicare for all through the senate. The entire US government needs to be destroyed and rebuilt. So the left should be complaining about it every day and easy stuff like raising the minimum wage.
Ross Moore
2024-11-17 22:08:28 +0000 UTCI have to say my experience as a lifelong leftist that the vast majority of committed leftists DO hate the electoral college and the senate, though the filibuster is just less on the radar. On the other hand, I've had mainstream liberals tell me in conversation for my entire politically aware life that the electoral college is worth preserving and the Senate is "the most deliberative body"-- most notable in my memory when W won the EC in 2000 when I was in high school.
DC
2024-11-17 21:47:11 +0000 UTCLoved this episode! One thing that surprised me though (it could’ve been edited out for time) was the way you brought up the benefit of having an open primary immediately followed by the hubris of establishment democrats without talking about the link between the two. I was a true liberal back in 2020 (and sadly an 18 year old libertarian in 2016) so I didn’t always see it this way, but in retrospect (and from a socialist perspective now) it’s pretty obvious that the establishment democrats like Pelosi and Clyburn put their fingers on the scale to tilt the primary toward Hilary in 16 and Biden in 20 because of their operating as “we’re the adults in the room, trust us.” It worked in 2020! But you can only ignore and suppress the will of your base for so long before it falls apart (as it appears to have in 2024). I would’ve loved a real primary for all the reasons you said, but with the caveat that there’s a good chance it wouldn’t have actually resulted in what the electorate wanted because of the way the party is driven. Maybe not worth having this discussion at this point but I was surprised you two didn’t mention it
Addison
2024-11-17 21:43:51 +0000 UTCIt's very funny that leftists don't complain about the senate, the electoral college, the filibuster, etc. Because if the electoral college hurt the republicans they would be crying about it every single day until they did something about it. The left just accepts this anti democratic institutions are normal and just allow them to rape us and the american people. I think the left actually likes the fillibuster and such because they are loser cucks that just like to lose and be losers
Ross Moore
2024-11-17 21:15:24 +0000 UTCHaving an independent organization even if it's not formally a political party, is very important. If all you do is take over democratic apparatus the incumbents will just hollow it out before you can take control, like they did in Nevada.
Nico Villarreal
2024-11-17 20:39:23 +0000 UTCAgree completely. The Dem Party loyalists are incredible. I get partisanship. I’m a partisan. But JFC, get a Party that can do the advertised job people, and if the current incumbents won’t or can’t, sack them and find people who will. The gauzy loyalty to what should simply be the machine that can perform the mechanics on behalf of the millions that are loyal to them is simply disgusting imo.
Linda Carruthers
2024-11-17 20:21:39 +0000 UTCIt kind of reminds me of a line from The Wire: "That's why we can't win. They fuck up, they get beat. We fuck up, they give us pensions." Granted Trump himself exists outside of that dynamic, able to do no wrong, but for the most part the American institutional right rewards tangible victories, and the institutional center-left rewards symbolic victories.
Peter Aidan Byrne
2024-11-17 20:13:20 +0000 UTCDemocrats have a real problem in terms of party leaders and in some cases, political families holding on to power or at minimum having outsized influence for far too long. Of course, that’s in addition to the party being in thrall to the wealthy donor class. At least the Kennedys were very popular—granting that there’s an imprisonment of sorts in that. :)
Allen
2024-11-17 20:10:08 +0000 UTCIn broad, general terms, both the only way and the only *reason* to resist fascism is to protect the vulnerable. The idea that more vulnerable people are expendable when they're no longer "useful" (ie. "FAFO") is seamlessly compatible with fascism, so while emotions certainly are raw at the moment, the people entertaining that idea out loud ABSOLUTELY DO NOT get to claim they're doing so out of opposition to fascism.
Peter Aidan Byrne
2024-11-17 20:00:37 +0000 UTCPerhaps taking over the party at the local and just as importantly, state levels. Also, rebuilding the party in places where it has been shut out of power (I’m looking at you, Florida). One thing’s for certain: we won’t get any kind of progressive or left-wing change without fighting for it ourselves. It certainly won’t just be handed to us by the Democrats.
Allen
2024-11-17 20:00:07 +0000 UTCAgree with you. Where I come from such a defeat would mean the Party leaders and the organisation leaders would resign. If not, they would be sacked at next meeting. It’s incredible how the US Dems permit failure to have a career
Linda Carruthers
2024-11-17 19:55:21 +0000 UTCI think that argument cuts both ways, though. The party doesn't get to say "like it or not, we're the party that can win," and then pretend that their failure to win when it *really counts* shouldn't lead to a serious re-evaluation and reconstruction of the party. If they're going to proudly choose realpolitik over moral substance, then they shouldn't be allowed to claim their realpolitik defeats as moral victories.
Peter Aidan Byrne
2024-11-17 19:40:15 +0000 UTCThis is exactly why I get frustrated with journalists/pundits who talk like Trump has a coherent, considered isolationist or anti-war foreign policy, when the truth is his "foreign policy" has only ever been an extension of his "domestic policy": there are deserving people who should be rewarded and protected, and undeserving people who should be controlled and punished. That's it. Granted, those journalists/pundits have clearly been talking mainly to Trump's opponents, not his supporters, but that's part of the problem - it helps perpetuate this idea that the way to fight Trump is to take this technocratic, "let's explain to the voters how things really work" approach, when what voters are responding to is Trump's *extremely* coherent emotional message, however incoherent his policies.
Peter Aidan Byrne
2024-11-17 19:07:43 +0000 UTCThank you for perfectly summing up something I'd already felt but had trouble articulating: the anti-incumbent wave, while obviously a real thing, is also insufficient at best and misleading at worst as an explanation for what's currently happening, if we don't also reckon with the fact that this wave isn't happening in an ideological or policy vacuum, any more than it's happening in an economic vacuum. Meaning that yes, the Democrats have been caught up in a trend larger than themselves, but no, they aren't innocent helpless bystanders, and have played a long and significant role in creating the global conditions for that trend themselves.
Peter Aidan Byrne
2024-11-17 18:49:33 +0000 UTCI’m going to be honest, I don’t find anything disagreeable about the “fuck around, find out” sentiment. Trump ran the most racist, incoherent, disgusting campaign in a century or more. A majority of voters are willing to throw Haitians into gas chambers and put trans people on crosses if it means cheaper DoorDash. You don’t even need to form a coherent argument for it! You don’t even need to speak in complete sentences for this to work on them! That shows what they really are deep down and I don’t give it the status of “human”. That’s an insult to every good person there is and ever has been. I’ve lost queer friends to this shit already. Those trans people in my life who I love, many of whom dedicated their lives to improving a world that will never accept them, are living in fear. They’ve done nothing to deserve any of this So yeah, anyone who supported Trump, or failed to do the bare minimum to stop him, is beneath my moral consideration. There is no amount of suffering they could possibly experience that would elicit any sympathy from me. Them suffering the consequences of their own choices would be one of the last instances of justice we ever have before the ecosystem burns to cinder. I will relish it and I resent anyone who says it’s immoral to do so.
Vanguard Kas
2024-11-17 18:21:55 +0000 UTCthis is all i want to hear
Know Your Enemy
2024-11-17 17:39:48 +0000 UTCOn the "anti-incumbent" wave in the world, it's interesting because I feel that it's KYE who gave me the tools to link those elections in a way that went beyond the basic "economics" of it all. Because the incumbents that fail all exist in the spectrum of ideas that American conservatives have successfully exported throughout the world in conjunction with the neoliberal project. It might be because I'm French but from my vantage point Macron in his basic ideology but also in his choice to reinforce his right over anything progressive seems like the perfect example of someone who incarnates the fusionist agenda including its aspect that rests on the use of liberal democratic institutions. And I think a Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney also symbolizes that. It seems to me that ppl are rejecting a very specific kind of incumbency that is rooted in an ideological project, and you can see counter examples in Mexico. Sorry for the long comment but like I said it comes from a contradiction between what I feel I got from the podcast and Matt and Sam's analysis of the global conjecture here
Andy Ant
2024-11-17 16:00:06 +0000 UTCI really like your Bernie impression, Sam
adam fleming petty
2024-11-17 12:52:51 +0000 UTCHey. Yes. Hard to disagree with any of that. - Sam
Know Your Enemy
2024-11-17 09:12:02 +0000 UTCI don't find any hope in imagining the result of a primary that didn't happen. There's not a single person that could have plausibly won the primary process that represents an alternative to the status quo of the party. It doesn't matter who they run if the message is that nothing fundamentally changes. For this alternative history to work the party would have to be something completely different.
Mark Harper
2024-11-17 06:35:52 +0000 UTClol very true -Sam
Know Your Enemy
2024-11-17 06:28:22 +0000 UTCPoint is to create an alternative, for example DSA acting as an alternative by only supporting candidates that abide by a minimum program.
Nico Villarreal
2024-11-17 04:43:50 +0000 UTCWhy wait?
Big Honkin’ AG Fanboy
2024-11-17 02:12:34 +0000 UTCCool, cool. Cool, cool, cool. What’s your alternative?
Big Honkin’ AG Fanboy
2024-11-17 02:10:29 +0000 UTCI knew that clip was gonna be from The Untouchables. Great movie and definitely the path we need to take. If they play dirty and cruel, then so do we.
Garett Smith
2024-11-17 01:45:33 +0000 UTCOther things that people like Matt iglesias elide: Clinton got into office with 43 fucking percent
Horseloverfat
2024-11-17 00:29:09 +0000 UTCAnyone interested in a 5/1/28 general strike?
ERIK
2024-11-16 23:30:58 +0000 UTCHa! Lately I’ve been thinking maybe the Chicago Way is the path forward. https://youtu.be/xPZ6eaL3S2E?si=p2MngVamjzSaIQu2
Keith T.
2024-11-16 22:54:06 +0000 UTCDon’t you remember? When they go low, we go high! That’s the winning message
Roman Drake
2024-11-16 22:33:00 +0000 UTCGreat convo. Small thing: Are we sure trump got fewer votes this time around than he did in 2020? Some votes are still being counted and last I checked it looked like he had surpassed the ~74 mil votes he got in 2020
Joe Palandrani
2024-11-16 22:30:27 +0000 UTCI think one thing you guys should mention sometime is how symbiotic all of trumps policies are. His economic message is his border message and vice versa. Tariffs and anti trans policies are just extensions of those. Even his climate policy (or rejection there of) is framed as “energy independence”. This creates a platform where the whole is greater than the some of its parts. They feed into each other and strengthen one another. Kamala’s policies are a technocratic checklist of policies that are either uninspired, bad, or contradictory to the theoretical framework of another policy.
Ryeman
2024-11-16 21:55:26 +0000 UTCThere is a lot of talk of how the Democrats failed the working class or just average Americans in general. Whenever the Democrats try to pass and sometimes succeed in passing legislation that does help ordinary Americans every Republican votes against it. As a result of the Democrats failing working class people, these people abandon the party. These people then vote for the party that always votes against legislation that could help them and never tries to pass any legislation of their own that could help them. The theory goes that people understand that the Republicans don’t give a shit about them but feel abandoned by the Democrats and so they vote Republican. The Republican Party therefore doesn’t have to do anything to help people and will get their votes because the Democratic Party is expected to do something.
erik w bjorke
2024-11-16 21:29:28 +0000 UTCThe Dems are terrible except for all the other electorally competitive ameliorative parties that successfully compete in US elections. I agree re CTC and I also believe they should have raised the federal minimum wage. It’s a handy signifier in ways that BBB wasn’t.
Linda Carruthers
2024-11-16 21:24:05 +0000 UTCI had to cancel my holiday plans this year in Texas, because there is literally a law that gives people $10,000 to call the cops if they see me in my correct bathroom and detain me for committing a sex crime. The fact that some people on the left see trans folks making literal “Do Not Travel” lists of states (currently TX and FL) where laws enable posses of citizens to arrest folks like me on sight for existing, and say that *we* are the reason the election was lost, is truly inhuman. The reason we lost the election is simple: the collective psyche of America is so completely deranged, so profoundly sick, in this moment that a majority of Americans are ready for a fascist regime. A majority of Americans are ready to say out loud that they want to abandon all values of a better future rooted in our common humanity we have ever fought for, have ever tried to stand for even when we couldn’t attain it, and instead simply want to grab every last shred of power they can to violently take everything from people they do not like. History is a circle. Biden was right: This was a battle for the soul of America, and the unsurprising outcome is that the soul of America is deeply monstrous.
Maxine
2024-11-16 21:11:53 +0000 UTCRe: culture wars. Too many dem politicians want to be conscientious objectors in the culture wars.
Henry Bachofer
2024-11-16 21:06:52 +0000 UTCThank You! Thought I was crazy listening to the first 20 minutes.
Blue Myself
2024-11-16 21:04:42 +0000 UTCThe build back better bill did get passed...
Peter Walsh
2024-11-16 20:52:11 +0000 UTCIt's disappointing to me that you had more anger for the FAFO crowd, who are understandably upset and looking for justice (even the cheap form of it - spite), than for the actual people who actively voted to have other people hurt.
Keith T.
2024-11-16 20:46:51 +0000 UTCI don't understand why people on the left still feel the need to prop up the democrats. We need to end this bankrupt pop-frontism.
Nico Villarreal
2024-11-16 20:13:24 +0000 UTCYou are overlooking the constraints of our 18th Century Constitution upon in far sighted legislation. Given the way the Senate is frozen in membership to Senators per state regardless of population and the refusal to permit expansion of the House membership guarantees reactionary policies Maybe it’s time to reconsider something like the Articles of Confederation and a new Constitutional Convention.
Philip Schaeffer
2024-11-16 20:13:20 +0000 UTCAs an Econ guy, I gotta say Sams understanding and breakdown of bidenomics both in its flaws and virtues, as well as the fixes not being as simple as some claim, was spot on
Ethan Stern
2024-11-16 20:12:57 +0000 UTCOh ha you got to my second point right after I stopped typing it
Horseloverfat
2024-11-16 20:03:49 +0000 UTCRe: voters dems want vs those they don’t: worth noting that the voters democrats feel are more morally acceptable — namely norms respecting republicans — are also far more damaging to their coalition than dumb bros. I.e. getting republicans into the tent requires sacrifices that make you less appealing to almost everyone in your base, whereas getting dumb bros entails a much less uniformly damaging strategy. Also — wrt to the convictions thing — I have come to the conclusion that somewhere between 40 and 60 percent of Americans have virtually no idea what they believe, which is why it’s not at all inevitable that you have to kowtow to polling on immigration and tack to the right; many folks are this concerned about immigration because the people who are most loudly convicted about it say it’s a crisis. When you don’t provide an alternative vision that you obviously believe in — and in fact lend credence to the right’s —you’re laying the groundwork for trump to win. If he’s right on everything, why vote for you? Expressing sincerely held beliefs, even if they contradict polling, and arguing strenuously for them generates political possibility; im not sure standard democrats know how to do it lol.
Horseloverfat
2024-11-16 20:01:50 +0000 UTCI don’t want to know what’s wrong with us. I want help destroying Trump and making his administration an utter, absolute FAILURE. I want help fighting him NOW. He gets NOTHING.
Karen Cox
2024-11-16 19:40:52 +0000 UTCThank you! Greetings from Michigan, where I canvassed in Macomb, knocking on 2k doors, and thought of YOU GUYS! Much to discuss. ... Onward!
Mitch McCabe
2024-11-16 19:39:51 +0000 UTCIf this is THE Mitch McCabe, I just wanted to say that I've thought of your documentary so many times these past few weeks and months! (Matt)
Know Your Enemy
2024-11-16 19:34:13 +0000 UTCIsn’t that how political change happens?
Andrew K
2024-11-16 19:12:15 +0000 UTCThank you, most of all. 🙏🏻
Mitch McCabe
2024-11-16 19:07:55 +0000 UTCI agree that it’s a disgusting impulse to relish the prospect of increased suffering under trump. But I don’t think you should ignore the possibility that the successful implementation of trump’s cruelest policies will cause the electorate to change its views on trump and his acolytes. In other words, when such policies stop being rhetoric and start being realized, that might cause the voters to wake up
Andrew K
2024-11-16 19:05:38 +0000 UTC
