Additonal Merchant Slots

Perfect, thanks for letting us know clay cyanide! Have a great weekend.

Thanks for the clarification.

Darryl Dennis Sandell

Thank you for listening to our discussions on the topic, we'd just like to voice our appreciation for your action.

yes nothing will change with the old prices.

Ah, didn't know that's how it worked, thanks for the information, that helps a lot.

Darryl Dennis Sandell

Patreon doesn't allow patrons to change the price of a tier fyi, so the only way they can add $40 slots is by adding a new tier.

Harry Colquhoun

Much appreciated Clay Cyanide! Really nice move :)

Niels Kristensen

So, will this be a new merchant tier, or are you adding to the current tier and be increasing the price? I know other patreons add additional merchant tiers at an increased price, is this the route you are going? Hard to tell from the update.

Darryl Dennis Sandell

Thank you guys for compromising, as an existing merchant tier customer I feel much more comfortable with this. Will your existing merchant tier customers price stay the same?

Absolutely the right decision, thank you for listening! Very much appreciated!

Alchemist Models

Nice job sir! I was really worried about the 100 new slots.

Yes. After all it's not all about money. we do art for you guys and it's imperative that we hear what you think.

I honestly feel like that is a huge compromise, and it shows how much you care about your supporters. I can get behind this 110%. THANK YOU for showing your support of the current merchants. You've got some real class.

Joshua Harris

I feel the same way. Another 100 is a huge jump. Almost enough to get folks to not want to stay. I know of one patreon that is increasing the merch accounts by 10/15 when they hit a goal of so many Patreons. Or maybe give us existing merch accounts a benefit that the new merch will not have. Like access to the MMF store as a incentive to keep their merch accounts? Just my thoughts, because it is a bummer to see 100 new accounts.

Jeff Abandonato

To echo a lot of the comments, this decision is concerning. One of the main reasons I dropped Archvillain Games from my portfolio was because there just were too many people selling and bottoming out the market. I completely understand the idea that more merchants bring in more revenue but the more the market becomes diluted, the more likely that you'll lose some of your existing merchants. So yes, you may not lose anything due to new merchants joining but in the long run, you may not gain anything either because of existing, trusted merchants leaving. A possible solution I can offer in order to grow CC's brand would be to offer a separate Patreon with sci-fi themes. It does mean that designer costs will increase but you'll also be tapping into a market that is weirdly under-represented in 3d printing considering how popular sci-fi tabletop games are.

Alchemist Models

As a seller this makes me value the license way less. There are so many creators out there creating this type of product. Unless I am getting great returns from an artist I can't see the value in staying subbed. My personal goal is to have my sub fees equal 10% of my gross profit. Clay Cyanide already is hard for me to meet my goals, I can't imagine it will improve with 100 more merchant slots.

Matt Fu

We have to agree with Alchemy 3d Prints on this, the market for 3D miniatures has been seeing some extreme price competition lately. The business itself is very labor intensive, and as prices fall due to increased numbers of sellers, it becomes more and more difficult to make a profit. From just about April this year we've seen prices fall about 30% or more, meaning even more labor goes into every dollar of profit. Factor into this the set costs for packaging/mailing, and it puts merchants in a pretty difficult position. That said, there are some alternatives that could be considered, like we'd be happy to pay some more for our current merchant tier to maintain some level of exclusivity. We love Clay Cyanide models and think you guys offer a lot in terms of the work and models produced. But most of our sales come from only a small selection of 28mm miniatures, which are the most prone to price dilution from market saturation. Mini Monster Mayhem has been facing a similar problem lately and has opted for increasing merchant prices will cutting off merchant slots, which benefits existing merchants more in the long run. We worry that 100 slots will likely oversaturate the market on the models that we do sell from Clay Cyanide. 3D Fuchs has a good point about illegal sellers further diluting the market, but there is no easy solution to remedy, and the additional legal merchants do add to the same trend.

I can understand your opinion from the designer's point of view. The problem is that there are unfortunately dealers who print in the grey zone (in terms of taxes and other obligations) and thus engage in extreme price dumping. This makes it difficult for the right dealers to bring the figures to the market. The danger here is that you get a licence from a designer who is not so widespread. It is difficult, I can understand that, maybe it would be a solution not to publish 100 licences directly but a small set first.

Definitely going to have to agree here. They have 1000 Patreon’s at the moment. That means that 10% of their entire engagement just opened up to being able to sell models. I don’t see there being a huge demand for clay cyanides models to be printed that isn’t being met, only people who want to print the models to make themselves a profit. It’s an absolutely strange way to reward those of us who have been selling clay cyanides prints for months. And as you stated completely saturates the market. 100 vendors is a lot of vendors.

Merchants only see their own little slot. If they are selling at conventions, then yes, it might get crowded... but that is not the creators problem. Most "merchants" are probably more like me, a small shop, wanting to cover the costs and be able to _legally_ sell a print to a customer who asks. They aren't mass producing things. To try and satisfy 10 or 20 "merchants" at the expense of 300 or 400 more slots is not good business. You do not make anything off the merchants... just one single extra fee per month. It's in your benefit to get as many as possible and let the market shake it out. I've heard these same complaints from photographers for decades -- when 35mm came out, when point- and shoot came out, when the disposable wedding cameras came out, etc, etc, etc, You know what? Good photographers sill have work, and the companies are selling mass products to everyone. Every phone has a camera far better than my first $1000 digital. It's not like a big distributor buying 1000's of minis a month. Everyone pays the same. You need to look at where your money really comes from -- in a patreon its subscription fees - and the goal is to get as many of those, and KEEP as many of those, as possible. That is your CASH FLOW. And it doesn't matter how many models you have sitting in your archives, unless they are SELLING they are not doing anything for you. And they should be priced to where they start selling (if you are lowering prices)) or just to under where they stop selling if you are raising them. Be honest about it -- because people check pennies on Amazon for filament and resin, you don't think they KNOW what it costs to design/distribute these files? The "black box" is gone. The thing you ar eselling is your CREATIVITY and you need to find the price points where you maximize your income while you can.

PUGDOG Enterprises, Inc.

Greetings, Coming from one of your current merchants, this is a terrible idea. The 3d printed miniature market is already getting very crowded adding 100 more merchants will make the problem worse. It will devalue your minis for those of us already selling them, making it harder to sell in an even more crowded space. I would ask that you please reconsider this decision. If as a merchant, its harder to sell your products, the less sense it makes to stay as a merchant. Its why most patreons limit how many merchants they have. It protects the market from over saturation.

Alchemy 3d Prints

Oh I'm salty about a lot of it and the added spots are being added to Patreons that most are barely breaking even on, with no discussion with the merchants. And others who say the 'merchant tier is a higher payback for the designer so of course its the spot to add slots'. This isn't true. And the saltiness for me is also how DTL has responded to those who are questioning/voicing concerns. Not to mention their 'back us annually/free stuff' then just popping the 'more slots/higher price'. Just because my customers are loyal and love me, doesn't mean I sell a lot of these designers. I give CC some credit that its 'limited' and I hope it stays that way. Personally, despite some themes right up my customers alley.....i don't sell much CC. It seems that just like designers all seem to do the same sets the same months, they are doing this whole 'more merchants' thing at the same time. And yeah, i'd rather they pay themselves better and KEEP them designing than add models to a month. This way they don't have to go get a 'real job' on me :P

Kristina B.

Absolutely. I am not disagreeing with that at all. I was just inquiring where the increased profits were headed. If they are going to support the people, so that they can continue to make the quality models that they make, then I can get behind that. Lots of patreons are adding merchant tiers and what-have-you, and at first I was a little salty, having tried really hard to secure my spots, and feeling like the value was being taken away...but the more I thought about it, the less I believe this is the case. As long as your clientele knows you do great business, they should come back to you regardless, usually even if there are other merchants undercutting prices and such. I was just curious as to whether they were funding more models or if they were funding a better paycheck for the people doing the work. Just because it is the latter doesn't mean it is bad. It just means they are doing a bunch of hard work and deserve a slightly better pay for it. Good for them for valuing themselves appropriately. Also, the factions releases are an incredible add-on. I definitely wasn't saying that they were not giving us anything. =]

Joshua Harris

DTL doesn't do their sculpts, those are contracted out. They provide the concept art. And CC just added factions, so they ARE giving us more. I'd rather pay more and get quality than get more. Over a certain number and all you can do is 'multi pose' the same model, the way Epic Miniatures does. You lose the awesome uniqueness of the models.

Kristina B.

Fair enough. I just wasn't sure if it was a situation where you were funding more models or if you were funding for an increase in pay for your existing staff. Thank you for being honest about this! You guys do some awesome models, and are pretty affordable, so I can see why you'd be looking to boost your profits.

Joshua Harris

So far we have not announced any increase yet. Regarding the content, we are already releasing approximately 30 models per month. More than that, we would be needing more man power on sculpting department.

Dragon Trapper just did the same thing, but they offered a LOT more per month. Are you guys using this increase so you can add more content to your releases? Or will content stay the same?

Joshua Harris