DEI Part 2: The Harvard Wars

and by funny I mean israel is the absolute #1 source of actual antisemitism in the world right now

Lilith Anderson

Its funny that we now know that a lot of the "hamas-caused" civilian casualties on oct 7th 2023 were infact anything but.

Lilith Anderson

Thank you for this episode. Polish right-wing politicians have been using the pro-Palestinian totally fake stance to implicitly express their real antisemitism. They are the same people who talk about close relations with goats the other day. It's just insane. It's also very rare that anyone publicly supports Israel in Poland. Or I just live in a bubble.

Karolina Warchoł

Do you ever feel remorse for buying into complete bullshit while children are being murdered for the very cause that you are buying into?

Gant Diede

It's kinda horrifying to see how many people here are trying to muddy the waters on what's ultimately a very simple conflict. It takes a single google search to look back to how this all started, it's not complicated. The only people that seem to want this conflict to continue, want to complicate the situation until the only solution to the problem is to retain the status quo.

AFXTWINK

If we're speaking of bad faith interpretations, the beginning of this episode is a prime example. I love this podcast, but you're framing it as if people's main concern about the protests is bad tact statements and 'river to the sea' chants. The very real threats and harassment of jewish students is what the hearing was about. You can't possibly not know this. It's about calls for intifada, kids being chased into libraries and 'final solution' signs. Then again, the hearing didn't even get as far as discussing the difference between pro pali activism and antisemitism bc the presidents didn't even concede that blatantly calling for the genocide of jews is against regulations. How are you ok with this? I just don't get it.

Almog Ash

Dear lord, as a DEI follow-up, could you two please talk about what is happening at NPR currently? A business editor publishing "they've gone too far!" re diversity, etc at NPR. Or I'm sorry - on the "lack of diversity of viewpoints" (eye roll) at NPR. I know it would be revisiting a lot, but could you all just bonus-episode walk through his lil opinion he published on the Free Press? The whole essay is SUCH an encapsulation of what you talk about regularly. He mentions affinity groups! He made an appearance on Bari Weiss's podcast! Ahhhhhhhhhh...my brain is melting...

Kara Deadmon

I'm just here to tell you that as a crossover Maintenance Phase and IBCK fan, Michael's little sing-songy "the discourse" from the Ozempic episode lives in my head rent-free. And now whenever anyone on either of these two podcasts says the word "discourse," I hear Michael as a "tiny repeating machine"

Christina Hernandez

also the entitlement of being like "i told you guys not to" 0__0

Jessamy Klapper

^And there you have it - there are indeed rabidly racist anti-Palestinian folks who follow this podcast (and even subscribe to the Patreon). So it IS important that Michael and Peter - and everyone else who stands *against* genocide speaks up on whatever platform they have. Any number of books that has justified, validated, dismissed, or minimized the ongoing oppression and genocide (it's been a genocide since the beginning, only it is accelerated now) of Palestinians would be a perfect fit for If Books Could Kill..since these books certainly played a role in the actual killing of people. Or books and authors that participate in culture-washing, pink-washing, or green-washing of the occupation ...take your pick.

Jessamy Klapper

Hello, they already did : https://www.buzzsprout.com/2040953/12498107-hillbilly-elegy

Moonlight

This is probably a repeat suggestion, but please please please cover the wretchedly bogus Hillbilly Elegy.

Faye Jackson

I’m very surprised at these comments and allegations of “fence sitting” when the segment is overwhelmingly pro Palestine. The point of contention seems to be their comments about the students statements lacking tact and/or ignoring certain moral nuances in their opinion. While they may disagree with the statement they go on to explain why the criticism was not only unjust but overall made in bad faith and part of a larger plan to villainize pro Palestinian activism. Not to mention that they flat out agree and acknowledge that what is going on in Palestine IS a genocide. Where is the fence sitting?!

Yuri

The situation is not complex. Palestine was colonized by the British, and then colonized by European Zionists who for 75+ years have carried out a genocidal project. As a result, Palestinians, the indigenous peoples, have tried several forms of resistance from peaceful delegation to armed resistance (a right of colonized peoples). Along the way, Israel has gained power and support from the US, and has fractured Palestinian society and ensured that they cannot civically engage. What the students activists did, as others in the comments have pointed out, is provide that context. The only people who think it's inflammatory are people who 1. Don't understand this context or 2. Use anything they can to claim antisemitism to deligitimize Palestinian self-determination. Their take on the statement is factually wrong and playing into the Right's, ADL's and Zionists' project to smear anyone supporting Palestine, especially if they are in an institution. Michael and Peter are wrong about this, even if they generally support Palestinians. But from what I've seen from Michael, he does not seem to support Palestinians' right to self defense.

Phoebe

They "took a detour" to frame the Harvard statement as immature and reactionary. Michael "took a detour" to say the Right finally had a case of campus culture going too far. They made their stance clear in this episode by saying that there's no contextualizing or justifying Hamas (even if you disagree with their tactics) and to try to provide context is the action of reactionary, immature undergrads. They don't have a stance other than that. It is completely fair to criticize them for their statements and framing of Palestinian self-determination as "going too far". When genocide is happening, when colonialism is happening, you don't get to intellectualize about what you, a removed party, think is best. You support the oppressed people in their struggle for liberation.

Phoebe

Truly bizarre seeing so many folks commenting here to the effect of “I already know where these two men stand on something but I want them to say it” I know many people are drawn to the work of Peter and Michael (and a lot of other smart folks tasked with debunking work) because it feels like sense-making in what at times feels like an entirely insane world. I’m one of them! I love how the 5-4 team, the IBCK team, and the Maintenance Phase team all do a really great job when I want to scream “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!” of going “Inorite?!”. It feels comforting and was deeply important during long lockdowns and the pandemic especially. But if you already know where they stand and you’re mad they didn’t spend an hour retelling you then maybe it’s worth some introspection about your relationship with that sense-making catharsis and whether it’s fair to demand that on tap from these two people or to bring their integrity into question when you didn’t get it. Yes, we turn to these guys to help us make sense of the world as part of a balanced diet of other information. No, they shouldn’t have to take detours from the topic at hand to remind you they’re the good guys all the time.

Leena

I think they were just putting the rest of the story about Gay in context, not trying to make any in depth statements on the situation in Gaza, and the only thing they disagreed with was that Israel was 100% responsible for 10/7. This whole situation is incredibly complex with decades of history and the obvious current genocide has people rightfully upset, emotions are high, but I think even if you disagree with the statements they made about where the blame lies, the point is when you make a deliberately inflammatory statement like the student activists did, it takes away from the message, placing blame instead of just saying, this is wrong what Israel is doing. That was Mike saying, “killing is bad”, not to dismiss that the genocide is fucking awful but that you can make a statement about it without saying what is basically conjecture. You can’t unequivocally say anything in 100+ years of international politics can be traced to any one thing. They also say that while the communications may have been flawed, they agree with them and that the slogan from the river to the sea is not genocidal at all and that it’s just a good short rhyme for activists. I can see how they could come across as flippant on the whole thing since it’s just background to the main story but I think it’s clear they are supportive of the students position on Gaza while seeing how they may have been short sighted and naive/idealistic with their statement. I feel Ike a lot of these comments are jumping to conclusions because it seems like both hosts have made it clear in this episode and on social media that they are pro Palestine but this isn’t the focus of the episode, it’s just context for the larger story.

Lauren Traci

I want to point out that the statement they criticized said Israel was ENTIRELY responsible for any violence going forward. Both Hamas and the Israeli gov't use the "but they started it!" argument; I couldn't even get away with that excuse when I was an 8-year-old.

Kazoolhu

Freedom for Palestine and solidarity to the activists. I have unsubscribed from this patreon.

Only an absolute clown would go looking for "plagiarism" in the acknowledgements section 🤡

They should send the Disk Horse to the glue factory

Dismissing the “21 year old activists” is incredibly disappointing from you guys. The october 7th attack does not exist independent of the entire history of apartheid in palestine. Hamas does not exist independent of israels decades of political oppression and stripping of Palestinian representation in government. Those students clearheadedly saw those attacks in the context of everything that came before. You did not. Boiling this down to “killing people is bad” is naive and dismissive.

Maybe we can have a level of patreon, like PARENTS WITH RIGHT WING BRAIN SWISS CHEESE and we pay extra for a few open access shares per episode? Is that possible?

mary lingwall

This one isn’t showing up in the Patreon podcast feed for me—only here on Patreon itself. Anyone else?

Hey guys you did a whole episode mentioning genocide many times but did not mention the actual genocide that we are paying for one time. It was disturbing AF. Are you going to continue to not mention it? If so I'm going to definitely unsubscribe. It was totally bizarre. I was just hoping there was a mistake.

Paul M